Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Talking About Money

kalzumeus.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 412 posts

Re: Talking About Money

#311

Post by nitrogen »

Osiris wrote: post #309
bobjordan wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bootstrapped entrepreneur CEO with ~30 employees in my company now, growing quickly, expect to have ~60 in next 12 months. I am not so interested in previous salary. Rather, I always directly ask "what is your salary requirement". I think it is good business sense to not underpay what people think they require, though sometimes this means we must pass on what could otherwise be good employees, so requesting moo…

Why ask for a salary requirement? Why can't an employer just say "We're paying $X for this position, does that work for you?" Just pay what the position is worth to you. The only reason to negotiate is to pay less than the position is worth if possible.

Above a certain point, and most programming jobs are above that point, there is no fixed position with a fixed value. The right person in the right place can easily be worth 2x or more than originally anticipated for an opening. There's no way to predict that in advance, so at best the employer could give an ideal range and let candidates demonstrate their value if they want to exceed the range.

Re: Talking About Money

#312

Post by Dewie3 »

aptwebapps wrote: post #300
Dewie3 wrote: post #140

> The movement is rather Marxist in character, but this capitalist encourages you to [...] > I’m not a Marxist — Yes, you said that in the opening sentence... Americans are very defensive about coming off as "Marxist"/"socialist".

American politicians are, for very good reasons, defensive about coming off as Socialist (except Bernie Sanders). Coming off as Marxist is completely out of the picture. But 'patio11 is not a politician and I expect his language reflects strength of feeling more than anything else.

> But 'patio11 is not a politician and I expect his language reflects strength of feeling more than anything else.

Yeah... strength of feeling of being perceived as "un-American".

Re: Talking About Money

#313

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

icebraining wrote: post #138
tomp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable to believe that the employer should have a good answer to the question "why is s/he making more than me, what does s/he do better?"

Yes, but let's not be naive enough to assume that people would be satisfied even with a good answer.

Or naive enough to assume that there is a good answer beyond "You're not a good negotiator so of course we're taking advantage."

Re: Talking About Money

#314

Post by aptwebapps »

Dewie3 wrote: post #312
aptwebapps wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American politicians are, for very good reasons, defensive about coming off as Socialist (except Bernie Sanders). Coming off as Marxist is completely out of the picture. But 'patio11 is not a politician and I expect his language reflects strength of feeling more than anything else.

> But 'patio11 is not a politician and I expect his language reflects strength of feeling more than anything else. Yeah... strength of feeling of being perceived as "un-American".

If I meant that I wouldn't have bothered commenting as that is what you were saying in the first place.

Re: Talking About Money

#315

Post by zo1 »

jacquesm wrote: post #278
freyr wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> negotiating pay requires a willingness to lose the job if the negotiation doesn't go well. That's why, if possible, you negotiate when you already have another offer. I negotiated a +50% annual pay raise at my last job because I was completely willing to walk away for another job. I also got the raise because I was playing an important part in a high value project at that time. I felt a bit guilty about the possibi…

Negotiating without a BATNA is like jumping out of a perfectly good plane without a parachute.

What is a BATNA?

Re: Talking About Money

#317

Post by lifeisstillgood »

otterley wrote: post #146
civilian wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.

> They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! Well, I am a lawyer, and this is also not legal advice. To lie and accept a job offer whose salary is predicated on the lie would constitute fraud. Lying about your former compensation history is no different than lying about a prior criminal record, if the counterparty relies on the false assertion.

A very good point, but, and this gets a bit complex, they would have to prove that they relied upon on false information to decide to hire or pay you.

So Bob and Anna are equally qualified and currently paid 50k. They both apply for same job and Bob says he has a (fake) PhD and is paid 50k and anna does not lie about qualifications but says her base is 100k

Most of us would say Bob has committed an illegal act because the link between qualifications and hiring decision seems so clear. But there is a very weak link between previous salary and hiring decision, so how far must the company prove that it uses prior salary in hiring decisions? Just the fact that it asks? The fact it only offers prior plus 5%? That prior salary is used to rank CVs?

Re: Talking About Money

#318

Post by vladimirralev »

marktangotango wrote: post #9

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

Just ask them what's the maximum they can pay.

Re: Talking About Money

#319

Post by tomarr »

heleph wrote: post #284
a_c_s wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...one of the pieces of paperwork you must hand to your new employer is your final tax slip from your previous employer showing how much tax you have paid in the current year..." Are you referring to Japan? I've worked in two states in the USA and never been required to produce such documentation.

I've always had to do that in the UK. Your previous employer gives you a form called a P45 when you leave that has information about your tax code and your earnings for the previous year.

The obvious caveat in this is that they could only estimate an average salary. You could state that your salary progresed rapidly during your previous employment, although they may not buy it.

Re: Talking About Money

#320

Post by gaius »

qzcx wrote: post #113
civilian wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.

Don't let their skepticism thrown you off. It is just another technique to low ball you. In my own interviews going out of collage, I was told by peers about the offers they were making. I got asked what I was expecting to get by employers and told them around $80K because thats what my peers were getting and I consider myself to be on pretty equal ground with them and most companies scoffed at it. But then I got an…

Don't let their skepticism thrown you off. It is just another technique to low ball you.

A key insight is how many salaries do you negotiate in your life - 10? A professional recruiter does this 10 times per day.

Post reply on HN