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Talking About Money

kalzumeus.com

271–280 of 412 posts

Re: Talking About Money

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience with a recruiter. I asked why and she couldn't come up with a compelling answer, she just said "That's just how it is, we need your salary." She escalated it to her manager and he pulled the same. I eventually complied but not without telling them I didn't ever receive a good reason and it makes zero sense and I couldn't see how it would do anything but hurt me. Funny enough I ended up gett…

Recruiting expert here! First off, a company "walking" without your salary information is a failure on their part, and their loss! However, to answer your question - I find the salary question to be a great indicator on many levels, here a few: It's just one data point in determining whether you're a qualified candidate 1) Why would I waste the candidate or the client/employer's time if there's too large a gap betwee…

I'm happy with your candor, at the same time you're displaying just about every trait that makes me loathe recruiters. It's refreshing to have this so out in the open, a bit like an SEO expert giving you the inside of his mind.

Someone's current salary is none of your business, it's that simple and as a block of reasonably intelligent professionals we could simply all agree to never supply that information to the company hiring.

Note that almost all of the risk at the time of a job change is already born by the employee, the employer using a recruiter is actively looking to dislodge employees elsewhere and has a few tools at his/her disposal to effect this.

Since recruiters are paid by the future employer they should be considered an extension of that employer and in no way are they to be taken to be independents or objective, their job is simply to dislodge you for the minimum amount required.

If you want to know that your employer and the candidate are on the same page then why don't you, the person initiating the contact disclose the range of salary offered plus or minus 10% so the prospective employee can decide whether or not you're on the same page? That's because you'd like to snag them for a little bit over what they are currently making, and you'd be happier if you could deliver a 'gem' well under the budget your employer has set aside. You might even get a bonus for that.

If 95% of your software engineering candidates have no qualms about sharing their salary then that is what should change if you continue to game the process by asking such questions. What a software engineer makes is their private information, and asking for it is just another means of price-fixing between employers.

And those candidates that challenge that requirement are not more trouble then they're worth, they are the only ones that apparently understand your game enough to not be easy marks and that is why you feel they are more trouble than they are worth because it isn't easy money.

Re: Talking About Money

#272

For anyone curious about the real roots of #talkpay, software developer Lauren Voswinkel kicked it off on Model View Culture: https://modelviewculture.com/news/lets-talk-about-pay (Background: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/01/talkpay-hasht... ) So basically, a software dev announced a Twitter campaign on a Silicon Valley startup's website. Naturally, it only hits Hacker "News" when some white man placat…

@Calibraxis see my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9475883

Today with all the shrill American feminism, other women have been denied a voice in this debate and nobody from outside America is posting in that twitter hashtag or blogging about how they are suffering WIT while earning >90k dollars per year.

Re: Talking About Money

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.

I'm a bootstrapped entrepreneur CEO with ~30 employees in my company now, growing quickly, expect to have ~60 in next 12 months. I am not so interested in previous salary. Rather, I always directly ask "what is your salary requirement". I think it is good business sense to not underpay what people think they require, though sometimes this means we must pass on what could otherwise be good employees, so requesting moo…

One of the things I've always tried to be aware of is how much value I add to a business. Dollar figures help most, but some places are wary of giving developers that knowledge, though it's usually not difficult to work out. This has helped guide my salary requests in a way that I hope is fair for all parties; rising tides lifting all boats, and that sort of thing.

Re: Talking About Money

#274

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

Recruiters on LinkedIn message me all the time. I come back with, "unless your client is looking to pay {double my current annual income is} + {25% bonus} I'm really not able to make that kind of transition in my life" (I would act as if that was my base)

Didn't work a few times, which I was fine with as I didn't want to jump ship. I really just wanted to get off their list. Then, a few contacted me again a month later saying how they found me the perfect fit.

Boy oh boy did they ever.

Re: Talking About Money

#275

There has been a recent trend in tech discussions to have greater transparency in compensation, and more importantly, removing negotiation from employment procedure (see recent changes at Reddit). I fear that this move would dramatically hurt startups, who need all the flexibility they can get. Moreover, this move could dramatically kill any form of cohesiveness in startups. Lastly, this move would de-emphasize the i…

> this move would de-emphasize the importance the skill of negotiation, which would be a detriment to the company

Can you explain this a bit more? Because poor negotiators are paid easily half as much as good ones in this industry, but the amount of my value that hinges on my negotiating ability is somewhere between 0 and 1%.

Re: Talking About Money

#276
post #274

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

Recruiters on LinkedIn message me all the time. I come back with, "unless your client is looking to pay {double my current annual income is} + {25% bonus} I'm really not able to make that kind of transition in my life" (I would act as if that was my base) Didn't work a few times, which I was fine with as I didn't want to jump ship. I really just wanted to get off their list. Then, a few contacted me again a month lat…

I like this approach. A Smart Bear wrote about it on his blog once: http://blog.asmartbear.com/how-to-say-yes.html

Re: Talking About Money

#277

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

I had a similar experience with a recruiter. I asked why and she couldn't come up with a compelling answer, she just said "That's just how it is, we need your salary." She escalated it to her manager and he pulled the same. I eventually complied but not without telling them I didn't ever receive a good reason and it makes zero sense and I couldn't see how it would do anything but hurt me. Funny enough I ended up gett…

I head up recruiting at the company I work for. The biggest reason I ask this is that I'm worried a candidate's expectations are outside of what our budget is. There really is no other legitimate reason to ask in my opinion. Having said that, I'm always happy to share a range (depending on experience level and how the interview process goes of course). What I don't understand is that most startups do put ranges on AngelList these days, so I'm confused as to why there's so much of a cat and mouse game. I'm running an experiment right now to simply be transparent about our ranges, even in initial reachouts. I'm curious what the data suggests in terms of my response rates and ultimately hires made...

Re: Talking About Money

#278
post #180

Something which I think is only hinted at here: negotiating pay requires a willingness to lose the job if the negotiation doesn't go well. If hirer has an equally good candidate or consultant who quotes a lower rate: you're out of the running. Even if you're better, you have to be better value according to the employer's own assessment. There are few employers who are price insensitive and you have to be in an overwh…

> negotiating pay requires a willingness to lose the job if the negotiation doesn't go well. That's why, if possible, you negotiate when you already have another offer. I negotiated a +50% annual pay raise at my last job because I was completely willing to walk away for another job. I also got the raise because I was playing an important part in a high value project at that time. I felt a bit guilty about the possibi…

Negotiating without a BATNA is like jumping out of a perfectly good plane without a parachute.

Re: Talking About Money

#279

I'm all for transparency, but it is easy to get weird results from the current range of "small startup bootstrapping" to "valley darling throwing money" to "high salary with no equity" to " ". I'd love to have a notion of what the real work rates and long-term rewards our for our industry, but it's so hard. Also, I note that nobody here is sticking their username next to their salary and equity stakes. :P

It's a function of company size. You can get North of $300K + options from the larger valley companies if you're good at what you're doing (though they will attempt to lowball you and they definitely discourage you from sharing that bit of info with your colleagues), somewhat less than that at smaller companies (but if there are options involved you'll get a larger chunk of a (much) smaller pie).

At even smaller companies you can be co-founder with substantial risk and associated rewards if it works out well. It's basically a risk management issue, if you don't want a lot of risk and a reasonably high pay with a potential upside you can't beat the giants, if your needs are small and you can deal with the occasional loss it may pay off to gamble.

Re: Talking About Money

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah except sometimes good engineering teams sit behind ugly HR practices, and hiring processes unfortunately expose you to HR far more than the actual job does.

If a company has ugly HR practices, you can be sure you will not be the only good person who is balking at the company. If you HR put you off, you're not the only one. Externally they will find it more difficult to hire, and internally the real talent will start to notice. Therefore, you don't need to worry about it. There are other places you can work with good people.

I've had a couple of really bizarre HR experiences recently.

HR: When are you available for a phone interview with me? FSK: I'm available on these days at these times.

Then I never hear back from them again, even after I follow up.

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