Talking About Money • Hacker News Board

Re: Talking About Money

#241

Post by lscore720 » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:37 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #218

jtroyer wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many times asking for your salary isn't a nefarious negotiating tactic - it's just to make sure both parties are in the same ballpark. If you're already at $110K and the opening tops out at $80K, there's no reason to waste either party's time.

If that was the case, why couldn't they say "This position tops out at $80K, will that be a problem?"

Recruiter here. Good question. In the majority of cases, I would say your approach would be just as effective. However, I prefer asking because:

1) It's about gaining intelligence - not in a nefarious way. If enough candidates at the right experience level are giving me a range of $90K - $100K and the client still won't budge beyond looking at candidates in the $60K - $80K range, I can eventually come back to them and say "Listen: of the last 10 candidates you liked, their salaries were..." A smart, reasonable client will make adjustments.

2) In rare cases: a "rockstar" candidate may be able to get 10% more than the budgeted amount, for example. So I would hate to send you that $80K tops message if there were potential for a perfect match. Then suddenly you're no longer interested and we missed a grand opportunity.

Again, I agree with you for the most part. But ultimately, the recruiter figures: 99% of candidates give their salary number or a tight range, upfront, without issue, so there's no harm in asking for reasons 1 and 2.

Re: Talking About Money

#242

Post by saryant » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

beambot wrote: post #187

saryant wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re 2), you should make sure your salary is at market-level and more or less ignore equity. Chances are you'll be let go or the company will collapse before it's worth anything. If you have a reasonable salary, equity is just a cherry on top, but if an employer tries to get you to trade cash today for a startup lottery ticket, say no. This is especially important early in your career given the time value of money. An…

Since L_Rahman didn't mention "startup" per se.... The Equity / RSU package from many big (publicly-traded) tech firms can be as much as 30% of total compensation. I generally account for this portion the same as "cash with a discount" -- when negotiating for my current role, I used a 30% discount on the present share price. For startups... it's a mixed bag (as saryant mentions).

L_Rahman may not have used the word "startup,", but he did say "first hire" so it's reasonable to assume we're discussing a startup.

Obviously the negotiation will go differently if we're talking about, say, RSUs at ExxonMobil which are as good as cash once they vest.

Re: Talking About Money

#243

Post by Omnipresent » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

>$20k a week! is astonishing. What kind of consulting service are you providing for the clients for that sum of money!?

Re: Talking About Money

#244

Post by minot » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

lscore720 wrote: post #235

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy. I'd definitely send a quick note to someone higher up if you can get a hold of him/her. I know, not worth the time, a hassle etc. But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire. I mean, hell, asking the question is one thing. I can live with that. But turning that into some kind of litmus test…

Recruiter here. Some may not like this answer, but: honesty is the best policy. Bluffing, or LYING, could backfire - especially if things escalate and they eventually learn about this. It's bullshit, especially for those who began their careers during a time of salary deflation. However, the right employer will NOT base your future salary solely on your current. It should simply be one data point in the process - you…

Sorry but I disagree. Nobody has ever asked me how much I currently make or I made at my last position. It is just not relevant. You make an offer. I might or might not take it. Asking me to reveal my current salary first is silly. If you insist on this information before the conversation can continue, then conversation is over.

Re: Talking About Money

#245

Post by minot » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

Omnipresent wrote: post #243

>$20k a week! is astonishing. What kind of consulting service are you providing for the clients for that sum of money!?

I think the context is that OP is very conversant with both Japanese and US corporate/startup culture. That can't hurt.

Re: Talking About Money

#246

Post by saryant » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

BSousa wrote: post #181

keeran wrote: post #93

The problem I have with this #talkpay thing is that it assumes everyone I connect with is in our lucrative echo chamber. I'd feel like a asshole talking about my income as a contract developer knowing I have followers who are really struggling to find work / decent pay outside of technology. Conferences, tech meetups etc I'm usually the first to be championing developer solidarity and pushing the message that we can…

I fully agree with that sentiment. I have a lot of non-tech folks ask me about money (when they ask me what I do and if it pays well) and I always try to avoid giving numbers and go with a more generic 'I can't complain, things are ok/good'. I earn a lot (and I mean a lot) compared to non-tech folks where I live: 20x difference in some cases. I had a friend recently in a conversation mentioning that buying X (one of…

I feel the same way as a 2012 college graduate. Most of my college friends are still unemployed or working in marginal work (temps, office admins, phone support). On top of that, most are buried in student loans (private college) whereas I had parents able to pick up the tab. More than one has turned to webcam porn to make money while I'm charging $$$ as a software contractor.

I post photos on Facebook from Tokyo or Berlin and sometimes wonder if I'm pissing off my friends.

Re: Talking About Money

#247

Post by icedchai » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #54

icedchai wrote: post #35

It would be interesting to see networth along with the salary numbers.

Why? to find out if people with a higher salary have a higher networth? I don't think it would be very useful, because you'd get people on low(er) salaries who are great at saving/investing and have a high networth, and visa versa

Because I think it's what you save, not what you make, that matters.

Re: Talking About Money

#248

Post by ivansavz » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:52 AM UTC

The part about 2X total lifetime of business earnings made me think of a good Serbian saying (could be Montenegrin, not sure): when negotiating on price, a good deal is when you're ashamed of your offer.

Re: Talking About Money

#249

Post by kooshball » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:59 AM UTC

lscore720 wrote: post #232

Nicholas_C wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience with a recruiter. I asked why and she couldn't come up with a compelling answer, she just said "That's just how it is, we need your salary." She escalated it to her manager and he pulled the same. I eventually complied but not without telling them I didn't ever receive a good reason and it makes zero sense and I couldn't see how it would do anything but hurt me. Funny enough I ended up gett…

Recruiting expert here! First off, a company "walking" without your salary information is a failure on their part, and their loss! However, to answer your question - I find the salary question to be a great indicator on many levels, here a few: It's just one data point in determining whether you're a qualified candidate 1) Why would I waste the candidate or the client/employer's time if there's too large a gap betwee…

> 1) Why would I waste the candidate or the client/employer's time if there's too large a gap between candidate's salary & their highest potential for this role?

It's trivial to solve this problem for a recruiter by simply stating the company budget range upfront. The problem is that recruiters want the client to give up their information without revealing any of their. That is where the asymmetry of information come into play and engineers end up getting the short end of the negotiation.

Re: Talking About Money

#250

Post by czbond » Sat, May 02, 2015, 1:59 AM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #167

Those rates make me go wat. I make $20/hr. :( But can we apply this to the skills we'll need for starfighters.io? It's very easy to point to money (or even companies) lost by data breaches and say "I can help you prevent this", but the money you save may be whatever they pay for breach insurance or it may be literally everything they own. Case studies and deliverable targets (+millions of dollars from SEO and stuff)…

Part of my background was doing and selling security engagements. Up until a few years ago, it was difficult to get senior leaders to wrap their head around security being anything but a cost center - even though it was always framed as "savings". That has changed in the past year alone. CiSO's are still hounded daily about security products which will "save money / prevent theft" - but the risk to the business is now clear to leaders without security background. I still believe the adage [paraphrased] "People don't pay for the prevention, they pay for the cure"