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Talking About Money

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Re: Talking About Money

#181

Post by BSousa »

keeran wrote: post #93

The problem I have with this #talkpay thing is that it assumes everyone I connect with is in our lucrative echo chamber. I'd feel like a asshole talking about my income as a contract developer knowing I have followers who are really struggling to find work / decent pay outside of technology. Conferences, tech meetups etc I'm usually the first to be championing developer solidarity and pushing the message that we can…

I fully agree with that sentiment.

I have a lot of non-tech folks ask me about money (when they ask me what I do and if it pays well) and I always try to avoid giving numbers and go with a more generic 'I can't complain, things are ok/good'. I earn a lot (and I mean a lot) compared to non-tech folks where I live: 20x difference in some cases. I had a friend recently in a conversation mentioning that buying X (one of those cheap android tablets for kids) as a birthday present was 3 days worth of her work. In my case, it is less than 1.5 hours of my work.

I'm very happy for earning these values, and I try to give back when I can, pick up the bill here and there (enough to help, but not enough for people to resent it) but I know we developers are quite lucky with the luck of the draw we got in this little slice of time and IMO, we should be more considerate of others in these cases.

Re: Talking About Money

#182

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

otterley wrote: post #146
civilian wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! (I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice.) I did a small bluff to try it out, just 5k above what I was making. The recruiter was surprisingly skeptical! I know I've done an good job of bumping up my salary in a short amount of time, but it was kind of off-putting to have him question it.

> They can't legally ask for proof, no. Bluff away! Well, I am a lawyer, and this is also not legal advice. To lie and accept a job offer whose salary is predicated on the lie would constitute fraud. Lying about your former compensation history is no different than lying about a prior criminal record, if the counterparty relies on the false assertion.

You can triple-dog-dare an employer to fire you "with cause" from a role where you are performing well for lying about previous salary. This is a silly concern. It's just not going to happen.

Re: Talking About Money

#183

Post by nailer »

Nicholas_C wrote: post #37
marktangotango wrote: post #9

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

I had a similar experience with a recruiter. I asked why and she couldn't come up with a compelling answer, she just said "That's just how it is, we need your salary." She escalated it to her manager and he pulled the same. I eventually complied but not without telling them I didn't ever receive a good reason and it makes zero sense and I couldn't see how it would do anything but hurt me. Funny enough I ended up gett…

Conversely, state you require knowledge of the maximum they'd pay for the role.

Re: Talking About Money

#184

Post by fredkbloggs »

JoblessWonder wrote: post #123
marktangotango wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, one might think so, but this was the CEO in question[1]. Edit, and so far as bluffing, could an employer legally ask for W2's to verify? [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/business/stinging-office-m...

We regularly get requests for job title/tenure/salary verification forms from former employees. I'm not sure what our status on completing them is though, but there are at least some companies out there that go through the legwork to check up on something after a job offer.

If you have a corporate lawyer and/or experienced HR director, you do the same thing everyone does: inform the questioner of the individual's dates of employment and nothing else.

Re: Talking About Money

#186

Post by MagicWishMonkey »

codingdave wrote: post #26
benmanns wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 2, if a reasonable salary is $X, and the company offers you $X-$Y, you're essentially investing $Y per year into the company (at worse terms than actual investors). How much equity do/did investors want for $Y?

It isn't that simple - investments and their returns have risks built in, and people expect more return for more risk. If you are an employee, you are not risking your own money, you are just losing some opportunities for cash. This lost opportunity does work into the equation, but not at the same risk level as an investor because if the company tanks, the investors lose every dime... But the employee still got paid…

Opportunity cost, how does it work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Re: Talking About Money

#187

Post by beambot »

saryant wrote: post #15
L_Rahman wrote: post #2

As a recent graduate about to go into his first ever salary negotiation, I'm really grateful for the perspective this provides. My dad was a taxi driver (now drives for Uber) and my mother a stay-at-home mom. I was raised with the notion of earning enough to support myself. Anything beyond that is something I'm expected to figure out myself. Posts such as these are very helpful. A question though: 1. If I've had conv…

Re 2), you should make sure your salary is at market-level and more or less ignore equity. Chances are you'll be let go or the company will collapse before it's worth anything. If you have a reasonable salary, equity is just a cherry on top, but if an employer tries to get you to trade cash today for a startup lottery ticket, say no. This is especially important early in your career given the time value of money. An…

Since L_Rahman didn't mention "startup" per se....

The Equity / RSU package from many big (publicly-traded) tech firms can be as much as 30% of total compensation. I generally account for this portion the same as "cash with a discount" -- when negotiating for my current role, I used a 30% discount on the present share price.

For startups... it's a mixed bag (as saryant mentions).

Re: Talking About Money

#188

Post by fredkbloggs »

mathattack wrote: post #102
tptacek wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glassdoor has never been accurate about any firm I had firsthand knowledge of.

I've seen it be remarkably accurate, but that was for a "Mostly cash, limited bonus" environment. I think one of their sources is H1B filings, which can be very accurate for those types of jobs. It misses equity and outsize bonuses.

First of all, you should always value equity at zero. Neither your landlord nor the guys at the farmers' market want your stock certificates, which are overwhelmingly likely to end up worthless (if they aren't already).

Second, most companies don't pay bonuses. Those that do usually have a bonus pool that depends in some way on the company's success in the marketplace, and they can almost always abolish bonuses at management's discretion. A good rule of thumb is that the more you need a bonus in a given year, the less likely it is that there will be anything in the pool. Don't even think of budgeting for a bonus. Ever.

Knowing what you're actually going to get as long as they keep you on is the right information. The other thing you'd want, which is very hard to get, is how likely they are to keep you on. For public companies you can read the 10Qs and look for news about layoffs, but it's much harder to discern how secure you will be at a smaller/private employer.

HTH.

Signed, A Veteran of 2001

Re: Talking About Money

#189

Post by galfarragem »

Nicholas_C wrote: post #62
marktangotango wrote: post #9

>> Most important takeaway about salary negotiation, by the way: disclosing a previous salary is almost always against your interests because it pegs your new salary to that plus 5% rather than your value to the new firm minus a discount, which is a brutal mistake I had a phone screen with an HR drone once (Cerner Inc. to be exact \waves) part way thru she asked me my current salary. I declined to provide that inform…

I find that quote interesting as well. Would anyone actually leave their job for $5k? Unless you hate your current job or the new job is more intellectually stimulating/better culture, that's a pretty paltry amount to take the risk of leaving your current role. Especially considering if you leave and don't like it you may have to stay in a role you don't like for a couple years to avoid looking like a job hopper. I m…

5K raise is a good deal in some countries/industries. It might mean a 5% increase in a 100K sallary but it can also mean a 25% raise in a 20K sallary.

Re: Talking About Money

#190

Post by cat9 »

nilkn wrote: post #83
eqdw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point where you quote a wildly inflated salary with a straight face. "My last salary was $300,000. Yes, seriously. Is that too high for you? We can discuss this further in negotiations, I'm flexible"

I've done this before. It worked. To figure out what number you should cite, look in a mirror. Keep saying bigger numbers. Don't stop until you've got a sheepish grin on your face.

> Don't stop until you've got a sheepish grin on your face.

When you hit "sheepish grin"...go up another two steps. Then practice saying it with a straight face. This is probably closer to your actual market value.

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