Tesla Energy • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Energy

#531

Post by _delirium » Fri, May 01, 2015, 7:53 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #397

tootie wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big cities are prone to brown outs on hot days in the summer due to air conditioners. The 2003 European heat wave killed thousands1. I could imagine mayors mandating use of this kind of technology in apartment buildings. Let them charge overnight to offset peak usage. You'd cover 100 or more people at a time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave

Normal homes in Europe simply do not have air conditioners, not even in southern Europe. So the electricity is irrelevant.

That's no longer really true. A/C units are in the past 10 years getting quite common in the hot parts of Europe now. In the '90s fewer than 10% of households had them in Italy or Spain, but that has jumped to nearly 50% now. People do use it a lot less, though: they are typically individual units, not central A/C, and only used for short periods on very hot days, not run continuously with a thermostat setting.

Re: Tesla Energy

#532

Post by g8oz » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:00 PM UTC

I believe the Chinese innovator BYD has a portfolio of similar products already. BYD got some press play in the West when Warren Buffet invested in them. They are making a slow patient push in the U.S with electric buses after flopping with electric cars.

Re: Tesla Energy

#533

Post by willholloway » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:07 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #468

willholloway wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've learned more about heat pumps I've been wondering why we all use air-source cooling for central A/C. We are cooling our condensers with hot summer time air when the temperature is much lower just four feet under the yard. The energy requirements would drop way down by cooling the condenser with a water ground loop. Ground loops are seen as expensive for installation, but I don't understand why. It's just plas…

I very briefly looked into this. It seems to be the same reason that simple and obvious things like solar water heating systems are so expensive in the US, but not elsewhere: Lack of awareness & low demand but few installers who target the eco/luxury niche product at a high price. These systems usually get installed only in high-end homes.

One of the things I've been working on are open source designs that transform sunlight into heat. I used cardboard, black aluminum foil and tacks for much of the heat for my home this past winter.

I'm also working on a simple open source design for an outdoor solar thermal panel that heats air to 130F. It can be built using diy vacuum forming and foam insulation.

I have a vision of open source diy solar thermal fixing the market failure you are talking about.

Re: Tesla Energy

#534

Post by loudmax » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:08 PM UTC

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #476

ZoFreX wrote: post #261

This is a three-pronged stroke of genius: 1) Immediate benefits to just about anyone. If you have your own solar panels, you need this (or something like it). Even if you don't, you can benefit by drawing more power during cheaper off-peak times. 2) If lots of people get in on this, we'll have the storage capacity we need on the grid to be more dependent on renewable energy. Lack of storage capacity is one of the big…

I am not so sure. On paper, I would be an ideal candidate, I have a 4.8kW PV system (20 panels), with an inverter the Tesla could likely use. But in practice I generate enough extra power during the sunny months to have credit for the winters, and that's in Portland OR. $3K for a whole-house UPS seems like a lot, somehow...

You have credit because you're selling power back to the electric company (PGE?), is that not right? The ideal candidate for one of these systems doesn't have the option of selling power back into the grid, either because their utility company doesn't want to buy electricity from consumers, or because they're off the grid completely.

Re: Tesla Energy

#535

Post by msandford » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:10 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #525

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You obviously don't live where it's hot. It's a really strange paradox that, in places where it gets very hot during the day, we're drawing tons and tons of energy from the grid to cool the house precisely at the time of the day when even more energy is pouring down on us freely from the skies. Seriously, A/C is basically Universe's most heavy-handed hint that we should use more solar.

Yep. Just on principle, I'd have a hard time living somewhere that was insufferable without A/C. It's a clear sign you're doing something wrong. Of course, you could make a similar argument about needing artificial heat, but that's at least far more efficient!

> Yep. Just on principle, I'd have a hard time living somewhere that was insufferable without A/C. It's a clear sign you're doing something wrong.

Welp, I'll get right on telling 40% of the world that they're wrong, then.

https://tropicaldatahub.org/research-in-focus/people-and-soc...

Re: Tesla Energy

#536

Post by MrRadar » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:13 PM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #146

kondro wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. 4.8kW Li-Ion battery for USD$3,278 1.9kW for USD$1,678. My point is that Tesla isn't really doing anything really unique here. Sure, they're giving it more press than anyone really has before, but the products aren't especially cheap, innovative or special. http://ironedison.com/12-volt-lithium-battery-for-solar

Less storage than a Nomad.

No wireless! (Nikola would be so disappointed...)

Re: Tesla Energy

#537

Post by danielweber » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:22 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #488

danielweber wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are planning to charge the thing overnight and use it exclusively during the day, nearly exhausting it each time? The battery is going to wear out well before 10 years. If you oversize your battery so you are only pulling out half the charge in the battery[1], you can probably get 1500 cycles out of it[2]. That's still less than 5 years. (This is a common pattern if you are trying to price-compare an electric car…

It comes standard with a 10 year warranty, with an optional 10 year extension. If they don't have different numbers than you, I don't see why they would even attempt that.

Warrantied to what, though. That you can still get 20% capacity levels in year 10, or that it will still turn on? This might be considered "normal wear and tear."

3000 deep cycles is really pushing what the industry knows to be state of the art.

Maybe they are just taking the economic chance that most people won't be deeply cycling these batteries, and planning to do replacements for those who actually put it through its paces.

Re: Tesla Energy

#538

Post by ghaff » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:27 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #458

billiam wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all trying to pick a fight. But: >Load shifting on a consumer scale has been happening for decades in various places around the world (e.g. cheap nuclear energy at night powering storage heaters) Sorry, but as a consumer I pay the same rate day and night, and I think most in the US are like me. I personally have no incentive for load-shifting. Why do I need PowerWall? >Self-consumption: in a grid increasingly…

> Sorry, but as a consumer I pay the same rate day and night, and I think most in the US are like me. Where do you live? I pay the same rate 24 hours/day as well, but I could switch to a plan with different rates if it provided value to me. I suspect most power companies provide the option at this point. > Okay, but it seems like a pretty expensive way to ride out a few hours of blackout. Is there actually a cheaper…

With respect to blackouts, I guess it depends on what's the typical pattern where you live. If it's a short outage ( 24 hour outage situation--which is when protection would be needed.

I agree that $30K sounds like a lot for a generator. I periodically think about looking into it; I've never seriously priced the whole thing out--generator, connection to house, installation, enclosure--but my expectation us that it would be less than $10K. In such an event I certainly have no problem minimizing my electricity use so long as there's enough juice for the furnace in the winter and the refrigerators.

I'm not aware of an option for non-fixed rate electricity where I live.

Re: Tesla Energy

#539

Post by marze » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:29 PM UTC

kondro wrote: post #113

toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that price, you could've bought a larger capacity deep-cycle storage solution already readily available on the market with batteries that will last 20+ years. Citation? Deep cycle lead acid batteries have a maximum life expectancy of 5-8 years, even if aggressively managed.

Iron Edison talks about their Ni-Fe batteries lasting 25+ years. http://ironedison.com/iron-edison-usa-series-nickel-iron-nif...

Price reference? Looks like they are 2x Tesla's price.

Re: Tesla Energy

#540

Post by crystal_crook » Fri, May 01, 2015, 8:39 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #109

Zombieball wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the real breakthrough tech needed is a new battery! Which hopefully Tesla is on track to develop,because as is, electric cars are just not scalable.

People say that, but from what I've heard there is plenty of lithium in the world to increase use 20% every year for 30 years before we need to get more creative in how we mine it. That's a huge total increase and means that electric cars totally are scalable. Do you have information supporting the idea that electric cars aren't scalable? My understanding is that they definitely are scalable.

There is definitely enough lithium in the world to increase the production of lithium-ion EVs. From how I understand it it though, it is unlikely that lithium-ion EV could replace every car currently running in the world. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/