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How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

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Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#51

Post by thieving_magpie »

danbruc wrote: post #35
knieveltech wrote: post #4

Ok so wait, in response to getting scammed you hacked into this guys accounts to gather information? And then admit to it publicly ? And then dox the guy? Unprofessional doesn't even begin...

Exactly this. I reply here because it applies to most of the other replies so far. Breaking the law is not justified even if you »only« affect someone who also broke the law and affected you with that. In the real world as on the internet. Period. Sometimes the world is unfair, suck it up, but don't become criminal yourself.

The only thing I'd do differently is I probably wouldn't write a blog about it. This idealist world you're living in sounds lovely but I'm not going to sit and risk my livelihood by "sucking it up" and accepting "the world is unfair".

If you want to base your moral code on laws made by old white guys, go for it. I'm going to live my life based on what I believe to be just. That's really how change comes about, challenging legal authority. Think about the historical figures you respect - rosa parks, mlk, snowden (maybe?). The world would be a worst place if they didn't break the law. To me that is contributing to the good of the world.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#53

Post by at-fates-hands »

notahacker wrote: post #38
at-fates-hands wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> in response to getting scammed you hacked into this guys accounts to gather information? Not really hacking when they gave you the passwords already. That's like me accusing you of breaking into my house after I gave you a key to the lock. >>>> And then admit to it publicly? I agree this probably isn't the best thing, but considering the targets are in eastern Europe, and they are criminals, I doubt they're going…

>> Not really hacking when they gave you the passwords already. That's like me accusing you of breaking into my house after I gave you a key to the lock. If you lend me keys to your house for a specific purpose, am I also legally entitled to rifle through your drawers until I've found your car keys and then have a drive around in that? They used the word "password hacking" in the email, and using a password somebody…

>> but to then boast about the felony they've committed on a corporate blog?

You must have missed the part in my original post where I said bragging about it probably isn't the best thing they did. It also means as a hacker, if you fuck with someone's business, be advised, you might end up getting the horns.

I think to a degree, it helps put people on notice these guys don't take this stuff lying down and if you commit fraud on their watch, they're not just going to write it off. It probably also helps potential clients feel safer, knowing they don't just write off their losses, they actually do something about it - regardless of how the general public interpret it.

Also, by your standards, then do you believe what Andrew "weev" Auernheimer did was illegal as well?

Just curious. . .

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#54

Post by danbruc »

thieving_magpie wrote: post #51
danbruc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. I reply here because it applies to most of the other replies so far. Breaking the law is not justified even if you »only« affect someone who also broke the law and affected you with that. In the real world as on the internet. Period. Sometimes the world is unfair, suck it up, but don't become criminal yourself.

The only thing I'd do differently is I probably wouldn't write a blog about it. This idealist world you're living in sounds lovely but I'm not going to sit and risk my livelihood by "sucking it up" and accepting "the world is unfair". If you want to base your moral code on laws made by old white guys, go for it. I'm going to live my life based on what I believe to be just. That's really how change comes about, challe…

I'm going to live my life based on what I believe to be just.

Exactly this is the problem. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with frontier justice, the only problem is that people don't act rationally in general. What if it is not some lost money but if someone got badly hurt, raped or killed? Can you hold back your emotions? Make sure that you are not targeting the wrong person? And even in the case of this story, what if those two guys are themselves just victims of the real scammer hiding behind their identities? You just publicly stigmatized two innocent people as scammers.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#55

Post by justincooke »

waxy wrote: post #52

You just nuked your service in my opinion. Not sure who's going to appreciate this posting except very very small guys, anyone serious will not want to do business with you.

I seriously doubt you're right, but I guess we'll see. Those that do appreciate it will be our customers and that might be a bigger pool than you'd think. Appreciate the comment, though.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#56

Post by justincooke »

bduerst wrote: post #31
knieveltech wrote: post #4

Ok so wait, in response to getting scammed you hacked into this guys accounts to gather information? And then admit to it publicly ? And then dox the guy? Unprofessional doesn't even begin...

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure the ends justify the means here. Considering it's international in nature, did they have any other option or recourse?

Not really. We definitely discussed with our attorney but, due to the small amount of money in the fraud ($25K) it wasn't worth the hassle of litigation.

Someone else mentioned we should go after them in Russia but, even if we won, I doubt it would be worth the hassle or distraction.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#57

Post by ryanlol »

justincooke wrote: post #45
apalmer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please take this in the spirit it is intended: I would never under any circumstances ever share personal information with a company that behaved as you have documented. You believe this guy has scammed you so you went through his personal artifacts and shared communications to get vigilante justice. Fair enough as a person I dont blame you and find it funny, as a business you just cannot be trusted with personal info…

I can appreciate where you're coming from here, I really can. I will say that we did consult our lawyer before writing this post, actually. Additionally - business is done on trust. Some will read this and (like you) not trust us and won't do business with us. Others will appreciate it and do business with us. No worries either way.

Did your lawyer seriously say that posting this is OK? I'm having really hard time believing that.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#58

Post by thieving_magpie »

danbruc wrote: post #54
thieving_magpie wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I'd do differently is I probably wouldn't write a blog about it. This idealist world you're living in sounds lovely but I'm not going to sit and risk my livelihood by "sucking it up" and accepting "the world is unfair". If you want to base your moral code on laws made by old white guys, go for it. I'm going to live my life based on what I believe to be just. That's really how change comes about, challe…

I'm going to live my life based on what I believe to be just. Exactly this is the problem. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with frontier justice, the only problem is that people don't act rationally in general. What if it is not some lost money but if someone got badly hurt, raped or killed? Can you hold back your emotions? Make sure that you are not targeting the wrong person? And even in the case of this story…

Again, I do not think it was right to air any of this publicly.

I get what you're saying, but I still do not agree that I should never disobey the law when I feel it is morally justified.

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#59

Post by justincooke »

ryanlol wrote: post #57
justincooke wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can appreciate where you're coming from here, I really can. I will say that we did consult our lawyer before writing this post, actually. Additionally - business is done on trust. Some will read this and (like you) not trust us and won't do business with us. Others will appreciate it and do business with us. No worries either way.

Did your lawyer seriously say that posting this is OK? I'm having really hard time believing that.

Keep in mind he didn't vet the ACTUAL post before I pushed it live.

In reading it back, I wouldn't say he was enthusiastically pushing it or anything:

"I think you guys have your minds made up. The reality is the risk is probably low. Truth is an absolute defense to defamation. It's unlikely a couple Russians would try to sue you, but you never know. My boring attorney answer is try not to go too far to minimize any risk. Stick to the verifiable facts."

Re: How a Russian Syndicate Scammed Us for $25K

#60

Post by hewhowhineth »

justincooke wrote: post #55
waxy wrote: post #52

You just nuked your service in my opinion. Not sure who's going to appreciate this posting except very very small guys, anyone serious will not want to do business with you.

I seriously doubt you're right, but I guess we'll see. Those that do appreciate it will be our customers and that might be a bigger pool than you'd think. Appreciate the comment, though.

I feel for you, but shady market, no buyer screening, plain text passwords, doxxing, ... not a lot of trust there.

When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. I hope next thing you do won't be looking for a hitman on the dark web :)

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