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Tesla Energy

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Re: Tesla Energy

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that price, you could've bought a larger capacity deep-cycle storage solution already readily available on the market with batteries that will last 20+ years. Citation? Deep cycle lead acid batteries have a maximum life expectancy of 5-8 years, even if aggressively managed.

My 2200ah Lead Acid bank is still healthy after almost 20 years. Just did some load tests yesterday.

Are they flooded? Do you have to maintain them? I assume you keep them in a battery box that's ventilated?

Tesla's product requires none of that to be done.

Re: Tesla Energy

#412

I am just going to cut and paste my previous comment on Musk. The Musk M.O: 1. Identify industry with big inefficiencies that depends on huge government subsidies. That's cars, commercial space vehicles, mass transit and now: colonizing another planet with the 0.1%. 2. Convince the media and envious government officials you are Tom Swift, boy inventor. Have these governments fight over how many billions to give you t…

Your comments on his reasons are clearly counter-factual:

Load shifting on a consumer scale has been happening for decades in various places around the world (e.g. cheap nuclear energy at night powering storage heaters)

Self-consumption: in a grid increasingly fed by solar power all those peaks hit at the same time and there's been multiple recent news stories about power prices going negative at those peaks.

Backup - no-one said anything about "true" natural disasters. Backup from short power outages is already an established market in many outlying areas and a fringe benefit for almost anyone. And no-one said that you had to buy it and use it for this single purpose.

This whole area has been predicted as a growing market for years, there's others in this thread complaining that it's nothing new compared with less famous competitors, so complaints that it's a product dreamt up to soak up subsidies is a bit odd.

Having said that, if I was in charge of a government, I'd be subsidising these kinds of decentralised grid backup right now as they are already useful when viewed at a national scale. It seems likely that in a few short years they'll make economic sense for more and more people without any subsidy though.

Re: Tesla Energy

#413
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environmental impact shouldn't be significantly more than any other hunk of metal of the same mass. And that has to be weighed against the fact that cost-efficient battery technology can make solar/wind viable and cost-effective relative to fossil fuel plants.

There's about $10,000 worth of work in a battery. It's not just a hunk of metal, it goes through a very complicated and energy intensive creation process. The cost of the raw lithium is about 1% of the cost of the battery. It's engineering it in a very precise way that's expensive.

The battery costs $3000 - that is likely a cap on the cost of the work involved in producing it.

Re: Tesla Energy

#414
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium mining has relatively little environmental impact: it's mostly evaporation of lithium-rich brines. But lithium is still not cheap. I suppose that a different battery technology, with lower energy density per unit of weight, could be much cheaper with comparable efficiency. But Tesla only has expertise in lithium batteries, so some other manufacturer could use the momentum with a lower-cost offer.

> But lithium is still not cheap. Lithium is extremely cheap. The cost of the Lithium has practically no impact on the cost of the batteries. Most of the cost of batteries is work. This venture makes sense because as lithium batteries are used, they lose capacity, and thus their specific energy gets worse. At this point, they are no longer very useful for cars, yet still can be used for other things. As Tesla recover…

Recycling this way batteries that are not good for cars but fine for less demanding applications would be really smart. Is there any indication that they actually do this?

Re: Tesla Energy

#415
I'm curious if local governments will give subsidies to aid in distribution of such devices - many places have issues with the power grid.

Re: Tesla Energy

#416
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you not install the battery in a heated place in your house (garage, basement, furnace room)?

What if it's in the garage and someone hits it with the car and pierces the cells? I didn't see "insurance" anywhere on that Tesla page. Ideally my insurance company won't pitch a fit about about me installing this in my house, but will Tesla guarantee that?

Talk to your insurance people. Usually when you have expensive items, you can get a specific rider for it.

For example, a friend had a rack with about $80k of servers in his basement a few years ago. I believe he paid an additional $400 for coverage.

Re: Tesla Energy

#417
For those interested in investing and finance, I have a question.

Why would this news not cause Tesla's share price to go up?

It seems generally well-received (well, as much of an indicator as 812 points on HN is). Surely that's a good sign? Or did the announcement not live up to the hype, causing people to dump stock?

Re: Tesla Energy

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess for most people it would show an ROI number that is not conducive to sales. Also, what is the environmental impact of the manufacture of LI batteries at this scale? Lithium mining, processing, assembly, delivery... we can't just ignore that.

I agree. Strangely, all of these issues were conveniently left out of the article. Not sure everybody knows this, but its not economically feasible to recycle these batteries: "Recycled lithium is as much as five times the cost of lithium produced from the least costly brine based process. It is not competitive for recycling companies to extract lithium from slag, or competitive for the OEMs to buy at higher price po…

So I recently needed a special cable to make some old gear work. It was only available from a single source and they charged me an arm and a half for it.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because the price of something has very, very, very, very, very little to do with how feasible something is, how much work is required on a fundamental level.

So what? Recycling lithium isn't profitable right now this very instant? Because the price is too high? Apart from the circular logic here, this means nothing.

(This kind of thinking is disappointingly common here. We will never get anywhere when we do some adhoc "price" analysis on every new technology and obviously deduce it's infeasible and should not be explored. Cars were economically infeasible back when you bought petrol from the pharmacy.)

Re: Tesla Energy

#420
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your insurance company allow you to keep one liter of gasoline in your garage? It has the same energy content as the Powerwall, is insanely flammable, is frequently implicated is home fires, and regularly causes human deaths. (Ok, a burning lithium battery will release more energy than its storage capacity, but I'm not finding a nice reference, Tesla knows all about containing cells to prevent chain reactions, a…

Gas fumes are very flammable, but the gasoline itself will flow down and out of my garage, and the fire would be very easy to contain with a simple garden hose. A gas can also will not light on fire just because it gets hit with a car. It would take malicious use of a gas can -- splashing it on a wall and then lighting it on fire -- to match the default configuration of a Powerwall.

You ever try to put out a gasoline fire with a garden hose?
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