Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#141

Post by tdkl » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:40 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #127

tdkl wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong. It shakes your belief systems, specially if you built your character around some facts like these and they stuck with you for the better part of your life. You have to consider that core beliefs like this influenced many decisions in life. People actually thinking about that they were perhaps wrong is more painful that blindl…

>>Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong. It's not about ego. It's about emotions. In this case, she is fearful of something that she doesn't understand, and has made a decision ("marijuana is bad!") based on that fear. Logic is not going to overcome that fear. She has to start associating marijuana with positive feelings first before she opens up to changing her m…

> It's not about ego. It's about emotions.

Correct, used a wrong term but actually thought about emotions.

How a human learns to deal with his emotions sets a blueprint for life.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#142

Post by Nursie » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:43 PM UTC

tmp-20150107 wrote: post #109

tomjen3 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a free market cocain and heroin should cost about the same as OTC generic drugs. That means your 1000 usd/day heroin habit is now a lot less than a coffee run to starbucks.

Looking at the official NHS pricelist for May 2015, 100 10mg Diamorphine (Heroin) tablets cost GBP 24.09 which is a lot cheaper than street prices... I'm guessing a GBP 80 (1/16 oz) per day habit could drop to around GBP 10-15 (not really sure about purity, but assuming adulterated to 10% would mean 0.1g street Heroin is equivalent to one of these pills, so that would be the equivalent of 10g or over 1/4 oz which wou…

There is widely considered to be a shortage of opiates for medical services around the world, and this is in part due to the very, very strict controls on growth and distribution of the product. This is in part why the cost is as high as you say there.

We seem to be getting a lot of stuff wrong in this area....

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#143

Post by notsony » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:44 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #97

baldfat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my fear. The "War on Drug" really is a health issue, but most people I know that are against the war basically want to smoke more and more pot and/or Libertarians and the reply to stop the war is not and we can help more people.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

Please define "equal marriage".

Do you support the marriage between any two individuals? So a brother could marry their sister? Or a mother could marry their daughter?

Do you support marriage involving polygamous relationships? Can three or four people can be married?

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#144

Post by Nursie » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:48 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #108

I'm against the drug war and for people's choice to decide what they want to put in their bodies. I'm also against waste, cruel treatment and general stupidity which are also reasons I oppose the drug war. That being said, I believe drug wars can work. China and opium a century ago and modern day Singapore come to mind. The reason the drug war isn't being won in the West is because it isn't being executed properly. S…

What's "properly"?

I think (hope) the citizens of the USA and Europe would not put up with people being executed for what we currently consider quite minor offences.

I guess in some ways you're right - if this was transformed to total warfare, with no mercy for anyone in any part of it, then it might be won, maybe. But the price is unacceptably high.

(Oh, also, Singapore is one small island with one city on it and a comparatively huge security service, it's often considered a sham democracy and a police-state. Cure worse than disease, IMHO)

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#145

Post by Osiris » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

phaemon wrote: post #12

Osiris wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like you read the second part of my post. My point was exactly that while I hold a personal belief about the use and effects of the use of certain substances, that doesn't mean that I have a right to enforce that belief on others.

I think the problem is with your use of the word "condone". I'm sure you meant it in the sense of "like", but it sounds as though you meant "give permission". I suspect the reply is basically saying, "I didn't ask your permission for anything." :-)

Merrian-Webster defines "condone" as "to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable". That's exactly how I meant it.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#146

Post by joesmo » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

The drug war is a civil war. It divides and breaks up society for horrific purposes. In the US, it's always been racism, a way for the government to put down people of races they could no longer legally murder or enslave. Some 'friendly casualties' in such a war will always be overlooked by any government. It's certainly no coincidence that the ramping up of the drug war by Nixon came only a few years after the passing of civil rights legislation. I'm not as familiar with the histories of countries like China or Russia, but I am curious as to what nefarious purposes their drug war serves. With such scummy, tyrannical regimes, it's easy to imagine a million reasons for the persecution they are and will cause their people.

While some people say not to ascribe to evil what can be ascribed to stupidity, I disagree strongly. Evil is just as pervasive and I just cannot believe that this drug war in Asia comes simply from stupidity, especially given the tyrannical governments now perpetuating it. Well, at least the US is now in the proper company with other tyrants--just as our laws are changing. It's hard to estimate the power and money that governments can make when persecuting and oppressing any group of people deemed to be enemies, whether they're deemed so because of drug use, race, religion, etc.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#147

Post by jliptzin » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:56 PM UTC

notsony wrote: post #143

panglott wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

Please define "equal marriage". Do you support the marriage between any two individuals? So a brother could marry their sister? Or a mother could marry their daughter? Do you support marriage involving polygamous relationships? Can three or four people can be married?

He is clearly talking about same-sex marriage. And if you're trying to make a slippery slope argument against same-sex marriage, that's been done 1,000 times before and it hasn't served the "family values" crowd too well lately.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#148

Post by intopieces » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:57 PM UTC

notsony wrote: post #143

panglott wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

Please define "equal marriage". Do you support the marriage between any two individuals? So a brother could marry their sister? Or a mother could marry their daughter? Do you support marriage involving polygamous relationships? Can three or four people can be married?

The parent comment to yours refers to same-sex marriage between two people. Please don't be disingenuous. There are no major organizations or groups of people advocating for the other situations you mentioned. You knew full well before you typed your comment what the person was talking about.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#149

Post by Nursie » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:57 PM UTC

RegW wrote: post #66

There was an interesting talk on Radio 4's Fourthought recently by an ex-cop. "Peter Bleksley, a former undercover policeman fighting drugs crime and an ex-drug addict, argues that the only answer in the so-called "war on drugs" is to legalise and license them." However, he was against simply putting the supply into the hands of pharmaceutical companies instead of criminals. He was calling for an affordable, state co…

He's probably right.

I'm very pro-legalisation myself. I also think it would be amazing if we could point our pharmaceutical research facilities at recreational drugs and say "Hey! Go find drugs people like that are less addictive and less harmful!".

But given the nature of markets we'd end up optimising for the most addictive substance, because you want repeat customers, right?

And the last thing I want to see is aspirational drug advertising of the sort we've had forever with tobacco and alcohol.

"I don't often take cocaine, but when I do it's Old-style ultra-crack, because I'm a young go-getting executive type with lots of cash and a hot girlfriend..."

(Please snort responsibly. This message brought to you by the cocaine producers alliance)

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#150

Post by AndrewKemendo » Fri, May 01, 2015, 2:58 PM UTC

notsony wrote: post #143

panglott wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

Please define "equal marriage". Do you support the marriage between any two individuals? So a brother could marry their sister? Or a mother could marry their daughter? Do you support marriage involving polygamous relationships? Can three or four people can be married?

I am not the OP, but I have no problem with any of those scenarios. Given how much those scenarios would be outliers I see no reason they would adversely impact anything.