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Tesla Energy

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Re: Tesla Energy

#361

Post by ceejayoz »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #167
frakkingcylons wrote: post #5

A notable beta user: AWS will be running a 4.8 megawatt hour pilot program with Tesla's batteries in the us-west-1 AZ (Northern California). Hopefully this allows AWS and other hosting providers to use intermittent, renewable sources of energy more often. EDIT: I'm guessing AWS will be using a cluster of 48 power packs (100 kilowatt hours each).

This might be a reason to move your production environment out of us-west-1 for a few years. I wouldn't want any experiments going on around my main servers.

AWS is one giant set of experiments.

Re: Tesla Energy

#362

Post by danielweber »

wiremine wrote: post #310

What I'd love to see is a ROI calculator that: * uses my zip code to figure out what my non-peak costs might be. * allows me to optionally calculate solar energy capture (so I can see what impact having solar would be, given the average sunny days in my area) * takes into account the wear and tear average cold weather would have on the lifetime of the batter and the payback period. For example, I live in Michigan, an…

The wear and tear on lithium-ion batteries can be significant. It's a big capital cost and every time you cycle it you take a little of its life away. Eventually you have to replace it.

And you really need to be using it, because a lithium-ion will still degrade even if its sitting unused on a shelf in a perfect climate-controlled room.

Demand shifting seems a much bigger payoff: using your AC to superchill parts of your building overnight (or build up ice packs) when electricity is cheap.

Re: Tesla Energy

#363

Post by mikeash »

guelo wrote: post #139

The main advantage of Lithium Ion is the high energy density which is good for reducing the weight of laptops and electric cars but doesn't seem that useful in a house, especially when you compare it with cheaper and longer lasting battery technologies. This feels more like them trying to find a new business line for their existing technology than coming up with the perfect technology for the home market.

I'm sure it is about finding more uses for their existing technology than coming up with the perfect technology. If you could sum up both SpaceX and Tesla in one phrase, it would probably be "perfect is the enemy of the good." You're much better off taking something that's good enough that you can get right now than you are trying to invent the perfect technology.

Re: Tesla Energy

#364

Post by mikeash »

hnnewguy wrote: post #317
jhayward wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. As already posted, no, coal does not produce most of the electric power. It does dominate other sources though. The problem with your rejoinder is it assumes the past, not the future generation fleet. Musk's goal is to enable renewable generation, eliminating coal. 2. There are no particularly toxic materials in the batteries. Landfills accept discarded lithium batteries as regular waste. While lithium is not curr…

>*"What toxic materials are you referring to? I'm not aware of anything that stands out, especially compared to coal mining, or tar sands production" Water usage, along with the carbon emissions from the large diesel vehicles that are actually digging the stuff up.

Emissions from vehicles are eminently fixable in the long term, with the very batteries they're being used to produce.

Re: Tesla Energy

#365

Post by at-fates-hands »

ams6110 wrote: post #345
wiremine wrote: post #310

What I'd love to see is a ROI calculator that: * uses my zip code to figure out what my non-peak costs might be. * allows me to optionally calculate solar energy capture (so I can see what impact having solar would be, given the average sunny days in my area) * takes into account the wear and tear average cold weather would have on the lifetime of the batter and the payback period. For example, I live in Michigan, an…

I would guess for most people it would show an ROI number that is not conducive to sales. Also, what is the environmental impact of the manufacture of LI batteries at this scale? Lithium mining, processing, assembly, delivery... we can't just ignore that.

I agree.

Strangely, all of these issues were conveniently left out of the article.

Not sure everybody knows this, but its not economically feasible to recycle these batteries:

"Recycled lithium is as much as five times the cost of lithium produced from the least costly brine based process. It is not competitive for recycling companies to extract lithium from slag, or competitive for the OEMs to buy at higher price points from recycling companies. "

Add in the fact there are currently very few dedicated LI recycling companies in the world, let alone in the US:

"With lithium recycling in its infancy, there is currently no main recycling infrastructure in the world that treats only automotive Li-ion batteries. A few pilot plants, such as Umicore's Hoboken plant in Belgium that are at a demonstration stage exist. Lack of standardisation in battery chemistries and changing landscape with respect to different elements under research for battery production other than lithium have made evaluation of the recycled value of the components uncertain for the recyclers."

source: http://www.waste-management-world.com/articles/print/volume-...

Call me skeptical, but I'm not sure Tesla has really given consideration to these issues. Their approach to these obvious issues are not addressed at all in their press release.

Re: Tesla Energy

#366

Post by mikeash »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #49
milesf wrote: post #33

Today is a big deal. Open sourcing the patents to build fully solar-powered electrical grids around the will be a paradigm shift in the power structures of the world. I expect from today onward there will be a full-scale attack from those who stand to lose because of the reduced dependency on oil. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.

> I expect from today onward there will be a full-scale attack from those who stand to lose because of the reduced dependency on oil. Maybe. But remember we don't have the technology yet to completely move away from fossil fuels. The biggest issue I know of is making Airplanes electric which so far has not proven really feasible (as far as I can find anyway). This solves a huge chunk of issues but there are still ple…

As I recall, Musk says that if you can double current energy densities, electric airliners become feasible. That could happen in some decades.

If that doesn't happen (or if he's underestimating what it takes), then I figure the solution for air travel will be synthetic fuels. Synthetic fuels are not very good right now simply because it takes a lot of energy to make them, but if energy is cheap and abundant because, say, the world is covered in solar panels, it's less of a problem.

Re: Tesla Energy

#367

Post by psychometry »

criley2 wrote: post #335
psychometry wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who rents an apartment with no garage and has a traditional gas-powered car, I can echo your sentiment and claim that Tesla has had zero impact on my life and that this announcement doesn't change that. I sincerely hope that Tesla's many innovative business efforts improve society in some major way, but right now they're still just a high-end automative company that's exploring the renewable energy space.…

>" but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet." "I choose to rent, I choose to have no property rights over the building I live in, I choose to be legally incapable of installing solar panels and batteries on a structure I don't own: Elon Musk has failed me" Come on now. You made your choice to not be a part of the greater community and culture of property owners. These options, they're available to own…

Oh, give me a break.

Asking your landlord to switch ISPs is not the same as instantly acquiring 100 grand to buy yourself a Tesla automobile. Nor is it the same as instantly having the financial and personal freedom to say "I'm going to go buy some property!" Have you ever considered that some people can't buy certain things because they don't have the means to do so? (Save me the tirade of libertarian talking points, please...)

I'm not blaming Elon for anything and I don't really have any interest in owning property at the moment. I'm simply pointing out that his company isn't really changing the lives of most people.

Re: Tesla Energy

#368

Post by freyr »

criley2 wrote: post #335
psychometry wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who rents an apartment with no garage and has a traditional gas-powered car, I can echo your sentiment and claim that Tesla has had zero impact on my life and that this announcement doesn't change that. I sincerely hope that Tesla's many innovative business efforts improve society in some major way, but right now they're still just a high-end automative company that's exploring the renewable energy space.…

>" but it's not like Elon Musk has saved the world just yet." "I choose to rent, I choose to have no property rights over the building I live in, I choose to be legally incapable of installing solar panels and batteries on a structure I don't own: Elon Musk has failed me" Come on now. You made your choice to not be a part of the greater community and culture of property owners. These options, they're available to own…

>> "I choose to rent, I choose to have no property rights over the building I live in, I choose to be legally incapable of installing solar panels and batteries on a structure I don't own: Elon Musk has failed me"

> Come on now. You made your choice to not be a part of the greater community and culture of property owners.

More and more young people are moving to urban areas and making property ownership a low priority.

But given that this is HN, there's a high chance he lives in SF/SV/NYC, where most tech workers could not afford to own property if they wanted to. Property ownership would entail relocating, which isn't always an immediate option for everyone.

Re: Tesla Energy

#369

Post by fr0sty »

robmcm wrote: post #199

You should be able to put this thing on the top of your Tesla (it even looks like a roof box) to double your range!

Tesla car batteries are between 60kwh and 85kwh. These packs are 7kwh or 10kwh. Not going to get you that much farther with only a 10-15% increase in capacity...

Re: Tesla Energy

#370

Post by mikeash »

sidcool wrote: post #7

I must say Elon is a brilliant engineer but not the best of orators.

How do you define "best"?

He's not the smoothest or most polished by any means. But he grabbed my attention and kept it from the first moment, because it's sincere and informative. I didn't feel like I was an anonymous member of an audience in front of a multi-billionaire. I felt like I was at a small gathering of nerds where one of them was enthusiastically telling me about his latest cool project.

Apple is often considered to set the standard for these sorts of events. I've been watching Apple's announcements since long before they were cool again, and I enjoy them a great deal. But I'll take Musk's halting sincerity over Steve Jobs or Tim Cook's empty polish any day of the week.

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