Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#111

Post by tmp-20150107 » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:49 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #38

aquadrop wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality steps in and it's bad. In Russia drug addicts were (and still are, to lesser extent) responsible for very large if not largest portion of crime, especially burglary and theft. It is a major problem, it is there and you can't go around it. And usage isn't punishable here, only distribution. So, don't dismiss parent comment so easily. 'Caffeine and alcohol are drugs' - yes, alcohol comes hand in hand with theft…

>> In Russia drug addicts were (and still are, to lesser extent) responsible for very large if not largest portion of crime, especially burglary and theft ... So, don't dismiss parent comment so easily. My issues with the parent comment are not that addicts never steal, it's the ignorance of lumping all drug use into the same category and then saying 'drugs' make you steal. It's the same in the UK - addicts of one so…

> It's the same in the UK - addicts of one sort or another do disproportionately make up the crime figures.

Yes, the inference only goes in that direction...

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#112

Post by Retra » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:49 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #97

baldfat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my fear. The "War on Drug" really is a health issue, but most people I know that are against the war basically want to smoke more and more pot and/or Libertarians and the reply to stop the war is not and we can help more people.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

I don't think it's a baseless stereotype. I'm in the same position as you, for instance, and if drugs or drug laws come up in a conversation, I'd agree with you.

But whenever I am part of a conversation like that, somebody inevitably makes it into a conspiracy fueled crusade -- like it is simply the most important political issue in the world -- and that person is most often a stoner. One who insists on being the loudest voice in the discussion.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#113

Post by andrewla » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #95

coldpie wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your parent commenter's point was, the implied other half to ending the drug war is replacing that policy with another one. What policy does it get replaced with? Just a free-for-all market that a crazy literal libertarian would like? Some sort of regulation similar to our current legal drug market? What about rehabilitation programs? How would those be implemented and what would they cost? Suddenly you've go…

Why is this so difficult for some people to process? We have very well regulated markets for cigarettes, alcohol, prescription drugs... why would this be any different? And even if we moved to state-sponsored rehab, do you have any idea how much money is squandered on the "war"? I don't hear these aforementioned fiscal conservatives complaining about that.

When you say "why is this so difficult for some people to process", what is the "this" that you're referring to? Are you making an argument for "legalize, regulate, no rehab"? The main argument amongst supporters of legalization is whether rehabilitation should replace the war on drugs, not "should the market be regulated like cigarettes or alcohol" -- only the most diehard libertarians would argue for a free-for-all.

As for the fiscal conservative angle, surely you can see the difference between offering rehab to people who freely chose to take a drug, vs. preventing people from committing a crime, even if you don't think that it should be a crime. And fiscal conservatives who do not believe that drugs should be illegal are certainly complaining about the cost of the war on drugs.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#114

Post by splat » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

tyho wrote: post #44

peteretep wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I do not condone the use of mind altering > substances Why not? Also, you should try beer, it's AMAZING.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

I would argue it's more a vestige from Protestantism. The Catholic Church has always been fine with alcohol. There's been a lot of theological debate among Catholics about marijuana recently and and least some have concluded that as long as it's legal and done in moderation there's nothing morally objectionable. In the words of Hilaire Belloc:

  Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
  There’s always laughter and good red wine.
  At least I’ve always found it so.
  Benedicamus Domino!

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#115

Post by innguest » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #59

tyho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

Facts don't matter for people that haven't been reasoned into an opinion. Check out Peter Boghossian's approach to helping people out of dogmas.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#116

Post by tomjen3 » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

tmp-20150107 wrote: post #109

tomjen3 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a free market cocain and heroin should cost about the same as OTC generic drugs. That means your 1000 usd/day heroin habit is now a lot less than a coffee run to starbucks.

Looking at the official NHS pricelist for May 2015, 100 10mg Diamorphine (Heroin) tablets cost GBP 24.09 which is a lot cheaper than street prices... I'm guessing a GBP 80 (1/16 oz) per day habit could drop to around GBP 10-15 (not really sure about purity, but assuming adulterated to 10% would mean 0.1g street Heroin is equivalent to one of these pills, so that would be the equivalent of 10g or over 1/4 oz which wou…

Account for mass production and that should drop quite a lot.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#117

Post by Nursie » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

tdkl wrote: post #105

Nursie wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong. It shakes your belief systems, specially if you built your character around some facts like these and they stuck with you for the better part of your life. You have to consider that core beliefs like this influenced many decisions in life. People actually thinking about that they were perhaps wrong is more painful that blindl…

You're quite right, and I know it's hard for me, in the depths of an argument, to admit the other person has the right of things when they have presented a piece of data that should change my opinion. Ego gets wound up in there, amongst other things.

One should be genuinely delighted when new information comes along and changes your understanding of the world. It rarely works out that easily though.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#118

Post by Nursie » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #112

panglott wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c. People who want to use drugs are already using drugs. Marijuana legalization would…

I don't think it's a baseless stereotype. I'm in the same position as you, for instance, and if drugs or drug laws come up in a conversation, I'd agree with you. But whenever I am part of a conversation like that, somebody inevitably makes it into a conspiracy fueled crusade -- like it is simply the most important political issue in the world -- and that person is most often a stoner. One who insists on being the lou…

Or that one guy that thinks that if everyone just tried LSD the world would change overnight and we'd throw out our politicians to live a new life of harmony...

Yeah, they don't really help the drive for a pragmatic solution!

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#119

Post by juliangregorian » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:56 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #110

juliangregorian wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a "normal alcohol dosage"? When I was younger I used to blackout drink every weekend, and most of my friends did too. Very normal, definitely "massive loss of control".

The first time you black out, you know your own personal "maximum alcohol dosage". After that, scale back to find your "normal alcohol dosage" and act accordingly.

Interesting definition for the word "normal" you have there.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#120

Post by talmand » Fri, May 01, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #119

talmand wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time you black out, you know your own personal "maximum alcohol dosage". After that, scale back to find your "normal alcohol dosage" and act accordingly.

Interesting definition for the word "normal" you have there.

Why?