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Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

economist.com

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Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#91

Post by pessimizer »

DanBC wrote: post #77
simplexion wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should heroin remain illegal? People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. Why keep it illegal? Why not heavily control it. Do something along the lines of; if you want to use heroin recreationally you must also attend 10 counselling sessions at your own cost to reduce the possibility of addiction.

> People consume heroin like crazy in hospitals and very few become addicted. That's a poor argument. People consume heroin and opiate medication like crazy outside hospital, and quite. Few of them become addicted. The problem here is with inappropriate prescribing of increasing amounts of opiates for long term pain instead of better access to pain management clinics.

The problem here is with heroin doses that cost about a nickel to produce (barring government interference) being marked up 100x, forcing a life for addicts consumed entirely with a degrading pursuit of cash. A heavy heroin addict who has easy, cheap access to heroin is like anyone else with a mild chronic disease.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#92

Post by kowdermeister »

maccard wrote: post #51
tyho wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

> There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. My two problems with this is - 1) A number of people who recreationally use the substances keep telling me "You've gotta try this" - Its none of your business what I decide I want to take or not take. (Note this also applies to alcohol) The second issue is the real reason - There's not a problem with the majority of these drugs in their pure…

Your second point is a good reason for legalization. If it were legal, you could be sure that you are buying pure MDMA or other molecules.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#93

Post by user_0001 »

Nursie wrote: post #15
ctolsen wrote: post #9

Anyone interested in the topic should read the LSE report on the Economics of Drug Policy. The facts are staggering, especially on the human and fiscal cost of internal displacement. I bet not many know that Colombia just a few years ago was only beat by Sudan in terms of internal refugees, and it's all due to the drug war. It also gives some perspective to the Western debate – we talk about decriminalisation and hea…

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life. Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having…

Those who push a pro-drug agenda have to preach what will work.

You are got going to get the middle classes, the average parent on side by talking about some peasant farmer half way around the world. They cannot imagine it, it does not seem real.

But talk to them about their kids, or kids of family members / friends that is something they can relate to and possibly know of a few examples indirectly

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#94

Post by panglott »

dublinben wrote: post #75
baldfat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my fear. The "War on Drug" really is a health issue, but most people I know that are against the war basically want to smoke more and more pot and/or Libertarians and the reply to stop the war is not and we can help more people.

Does it really matter why someone is against the current failed policies? There are any number of paths that could lead someone to desire change, and none is more legitimate than any other.

Sure! Depending on why you want to end the drug war, you could end up replacing it with something as bad or worse.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#95

Post by juliangregorian »

coldpie wrote: post #81
dublinben wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really matter why someone is against the current failed policies? There are any number of paths that could lead someone to desire change, and none is more legitimate than any other.

I think your parent commenter's point was, the implied other half to ending the drug war is replacing that policy with another one. What policy does it get replaced with? Just a free-for-all market that a crazy literal libertarian would like? Some sort of regulation similar to our current legal drug market? What about rehabilitation programs? How would those be implemented and what would they cost? Suddenly you've go…

Why is this so difficult for some people to process? We have very well regulated markets for cigarettes, alcohol, prescription drugs... why would this be any different? And even if we moved to state-sponsored rehab, do you have any idea how much money is squandered on the "war"? I don't hear these aforementioned fiscal conservatives complaining about that.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#96

Post by user_0001 »

peteretep wrote: post #4
Osiris wrote: post #2

While I do not condone the use of mind altering substances, I believe that the externalities of the illegal drug trade are far worse than what the drugs do to the users (e.g., the number of murders is Mexico is currently unknown and is somewhere between 20k and 250k a year). A second argument in favor of regulation over an outright ban is personal liberty. Our social contract is about protecting ourselves from each o…

> While I do not condone the use of mind altering > substances Why not? Also, you should try beer, it's AMAZING.

As are MDMA, ketamine, LSD, mushrooms, 2CB, cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, methamphetamine and all the rest.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#97

Post by panglott »

baldfat wrote: post #52
ukigumo wrote: post #31

It's not often that I have the opportunity to feel proud of the legislators in my home country, but Portugal has been on the leading edge of drug prevention and rehabilitation since we moved from a "war on drugs" to a program of health risk prevention and removed the weight of criminal charges and proceedings from the equation. Some interesting articles below: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-de…

This is my fear. The "War on Drug" really is a health issue, but most people I know that are against the war basically want to smoke more and more pot and/or Libertarians and the reply to stop the war is not and we can help more people.

This is essentially the stereotype of legalization activists, but it's not really true. I don't smoke pot, but have long been an advocate of legalization. It's so strange to me when people assume I do smoke because of this advocacy... I'm also a straight supporter of equal marriage, and a male supporter of pro-choice policies, &c., &c.

People who want to use drugs are already using drugs.

Marijuana legalization would never have passed the ballot box in the western states if the reason people supported legalizing it was just to smoke more instead of on the policy merits.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#98

Post by simonh »

cmdrfred wrote: post #63
simonh wrote: post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

'Fortunately we do have a largely successful, bloodless war on a drug to learn from.' Successful maybe, bloodless not even close. http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justice/new-york-choke-hold-de...

Oh come on, the guy was an illegal street trader. That gets cracked down on regardless of what's being sold, in this case it just happened to be cigarettes. I've seen someone arrested for selling slingshot helicopter toys on the street. Trying to stretch that into a bloody 'war on tobacco' is really a bit much.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#99

Post by Nursie »

user_0001 wrote: post #93
Nursie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sorta sickens me that those on the pro-war side of this debate always ignore what happens in South America and parts of Africa. The rhetoric is always about preventing addiction at home, stopping a few American (or British or Australian or whatever) kids from getting hooked and having a tough life. Never mind the destabilised countries, the thousands slaughtered, that's far away and not our problem. Jim-bob having…

Those who push a pro-drug agenda have to preach what will work. You are got going to get the middle classes, the average parent on side by talking about some peasant farmer half way around the world. They cannot imagine it, it does not seem real. But talk to them about their kids, or kids of family members / friends that is something they can relate to and possibly know of a few examples indirectly

>> You are got going to get the middle classes, the average parent on side by talking about some peasant farmer half way around the world. They cannot imagine it, it does not seem real.

This is a major problem with our societies IMHO. People must be made to realise that the policies they vote for are killing people around the world, in their thousands and tens of thousands. But as long as their kid doesn't smoke a joint then it must all be ok, because drugs are bad. What those other people do is up to them. Never mind that your kid is actually giving money to a mexican or colombian cartel, and then your government sends some people over there to destroy their crops and land as retaliation...

Unfortunately you are right, and making sure the argument addresses their lives directly is the only way to change it.

Sad.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#100

Post by Lawtonfogle »

sneak wrote: post #3
Osiris wrote: post #2

While I do not condone the use of mind altering substances, I believe that the externalities of the illegal drug trade are far worse than what the drugs do to the users (e.g., the number of murders is Mexico is currently unknown and is somewhere between 20k and 250k a year). A second argument in favor of regulation over an outright ban is personal liberty. Our social contract is about protecting ourselves from each o…

Who are you to condone what others do or don't do to their own bodies and minds? That's like not condoning execution-altering software. It's none of your business what I do with my hardware.

>Who are you to condone what others do or don't do to their own bodies and minds?

That has been a large part of law since forever. Take contract laws that prevents a person from signing away certain rights. Are we in the right restricting their ability to sign away some of their rights? What about preventing those under 21 from drinking or those under 18 from entering into contracts?

Having laws that ban others (often under the reason of protecting them even though often the law predates or stands against scientific evidence of such a fact) is the norm.

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