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When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

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Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#21

Post by derekp7 »

Afton wrote: post #14
analyst74 wrote: post #7

Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. But once you link disappearance of language with words like endangered, dying, extinct, all of sudden it sounds terrible. Power of the words.

> Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. It isn't at all obvious that it would be a straight-up boon. It would help some things, hurt others. And in a few generations, we would have dialects and languages again. It's just how brains and (by extension) communities work.

Would that still be the case in today's highly connected world?

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#22

Post by noblethrasher »

realusername wrote: post #6
iagooar wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want you to see this as a personal attack, but isn't it your father's fault not having taught you to speak this "dialect" (which, I guess, is a language called despectively a dialect)?

It's indeed part of the problem. It's clearly a chicken and egg problem, because it was already engendered at the time, he did not think it would be useful (and it was already a bit out of fashion). But yes I agree. I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french (I'm french myself). But after all, I'm not a linguist, they might disagree with the appellation. Maybe it would be a good think to docu…

> I call it a dialect myself because it relies at least 20% on french

"A language is a dialect with an army and navy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an...

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#23

Post by mc32 »

walterbell wrote: post #17
Afton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. It isn't at all obvious that it would be a straight-up boon. It would help some things, hurt others. And in a few generations, we would have dialects and languages again. It's just how brains and (by extension) communities work.

> It's just how brains and (by extension) communities work Any recommended references on this process of language forking and dialect creation, especially in the context of neuroscience?

I would think this kind of drift that used to happen when population were separated and didn't intercommunicate would happen much less nowadays.

Print, physical and electronic, kind of ossify a language. How much have English, Chinese, German evolved since widespread print and education? I think much less than they did a few hundred years ago.

Interconnectedness kind of promotes the preservation of the current state of a language, I think. Yes argots and memes and cants proliferate more quickly but dont seem to make so many permanent changes and when they do instigate a change that change gets diffused more widely so the language, while changing, remains monolithic rather than create a new dialect.

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#24

Post by vorg »

analyst74 wrote: post #7

Languages were invented as means of communication, so if all languages disappear except one it'll be tremendous boost to humanity. But once you link disappearance of language with words like endangered, dying, extinct, all of sudden it sounds terrible. Power of the words.

> Languages were invented as means of communication

That's one of two equally important reasons for language. The other is to easily identify insiders in large communities. A few languages later change their primary use to inter-community communication, but those will then start to splinter into dialects to easily distinguish insiders from outsiders.

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#25

Post by Dewie3 »

Htsthbjig wrote: post #19

Good riddance. When I have traveled the world I got to the conclusion that the main problem of the world is people speaking different languages. Americans, or Japanese or Chinese believing whatever their media trows at them only happens because those people do not understand the rest of the languages of the world. Those countries are so big, the people living there believe they don't need other languages in order to…

Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely...

Viva la programmacion!..

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#26

Post by analyst74 »

Dewie3 wrote: post #25
Htsthbjig wrote: post #19

Good riddance. When I have traveled the world I got to the conclusion that the main problem of the world is people speaking different languages. Americans, or Japanese or Chinese believing whatever their media trows at them only happens because those people do not understand the rest of the languages of the world. Those countries are so big, the people living there believe they don't need other languages in order to…

Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely... Viva la programmacion!..

What carries culture is people, not the language they speak. Do all English speaking people think the same and have no identity?

We humans are very good at both forming groups as well as self-segregation. There will never be total conformance and homogeneity. If you think certain group of people fall into that category, that's because your own lack of understanding of them rather than them being the same.

In fact, if we all spoke the same language, there will actually be more understanding and less perceived sameness or difference.

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#27

Post by iagooar »

d4mi3n wrote: post #5
iagooar wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want you to see this as a personal attack, but isn't it your father's fault not having taught you to speak this "dialect" (which, I guess, is a language called despectively a dialect)?

Blaming people contributes to this discussion how?

I don't want to blame anyone, that wasn't my intent. But how do I express my opinion, that passing a language from parents to children is the best way of preserving an endagered language?

I ask myself how is your "grumpy" post contributing to this discussion?

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#29

Post by meric »

analyst74 wrote: post #26
Dewie3 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely... Viva la programmacion!..

What carries culture is people, not the language they speak. Do all English speaking people think the same and have no identity? We humans are very good at both forming groups as well as self-segregation. There will never be total conformance and homogeneity. If you think certain group of people fall into that category, that's because your own lack of understanding of them rather than them being the same. In fact, if…

If we all do the same things during the day, there will actually be even more understanding and less perceived sameness or difference.

People don't live to achieve total understanding and zero perceived difference with everyone else, rather, understanding and sameness exists to facilitate living.

Slowly getting to know people who spoke no common language with you and finally both of you managing to build rapport and communicate clearly with each other is a fulfilling experience. Advocating monoculture of language isn't too different to advocating a monoculture of crops, destroying diversity of life in the name of efficiency.

Efficiency facilitates living. Sacrificing experience of life in the name of efficiency kind of defeats the point.

You want more, more of what, exactly?

Re: When there's no one left to talk to: a guide to endangered languages

#30

Post by hkailahi »

analyst74 wrote: post #26
Dewie3 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn - if only programmers ruled the world, there could be world peace. Imagine a world of total conformance and homogeneity, identity stripped away in the name of standardization and streamlining. Finally, we would all understand each other... surely... Viva la programmacion!..

What carries culture is people, not the language they speak. Do all English speaking people think the same and have no identity? We humans are very good at both forming groups as well as self-segregation. There will never be total conformance and homogeneity. If you think certain group of people fall into that category, that's because your own lack of understanding of them rather than them being the same. In fact, if…

Language is a barrier, and barriers have had a huge part in developing and maintaining cultures (Think mountains/laws/etc). Language keeps many cultural thoughts, perceptions, artifacts, and philosophies from both entering and leaving.

Like you said, the idea of everyone speaking the same language could never result in total homogeneity. However, you could lose out on some of the deeper insights and developments without language to filter out the noise. I believe that it would be a huge step backwards, but obviously you may disagree.

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