But where will the software come from? Do you have to hook up your credit card to the package manager?
Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
141–150 of 221 posts
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#142Perhaps I missed it, but the article doesn't mention this in any way: Windows ABSOLUTELY needs a way to go from 'Fresh Install' to 'Fully upgraded' with minimal interaction. Linux can do this: run `apt-get dist-upgrade` in Ubuntu, and you get all of the most recent updates. However, in Windows, you install 3 updates, restart, install 5 updates, restart, install 110 updates, restart....
>restart This isn't going to happen. MS is tied deeply into restarting due to how it loads libraries and other issues. Unless they write a new OS from scratch and give up on legacy compatibility, well, don't hold your breath.
If this day has taught anything: MS is moving to Linux
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once a month is way too often. Even if your downtime requirements are "so high", once a month is ridiculous. For the sake of this example, let's assume you have customers that depend on your server being up, for the product/service they're paying you for. Tell the customers that you plan on rebooting once a month, and see how they feel about it.
In that scenario I'd never have just a single server, be it Linux, Windows, BSD, or anything else. Being in a situation where you're completely unable to restart a machine without losing money, is being in a situation where you're living on a knife edge regardless. A single hardware failure and you're in deep trouble. I've been in exactly that situation (the entire company rested on a single Ubuntu server), it was re…
his point remains. being forced to run 2 servers so your server doesn't go down once/month is a bit ridiculous.
No, it isn't untenable, yes you can work around it, but that's a problem that shouldn't need to be worked around.
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#144I was going to say, "Finally! They've gotten it right after all these years of sucking so hard as to be unusable on servers." But, I did some digging into the github for OneGet ( https://github.com/OneGet/oneget )... And, they haven't gotten it right. Windows package management still sucks so hard as to make the OS unusable on servers (and annoying as hell on the desktop). This is seemingly a simple-minded downloader…
As long as there is no single prevalent native package format for Windows, packaging is going to suck on Windows. That's why this tool exists, but I don't think attacking a big mess with more complexity is the right approach. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this will end up 'successful' only in the way NuGet is 'successful' - there's not really any competition.
What I'd hoped for is that MS would commit to extending MSI to handle new use cases and provide actual good tools to make authoring MSI less painful. Maybe some kind of marketing or outreach to get ISVs to use MSI instead of the various alternatives. But for some reason they don't do that, and now it looks like one of the things cut to make Nano Server is Windows Installer (MSI), so I don't think it's going to happen.
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Ever want to... That's because Bash is used to tie together separate programs that do the work. PowerShell, on the other hand, is a .NET shell and more equivalent to the shells in Python, Node, Ruby, the JVM, etc, all of which provide ways to work with JSON and many different data structures.
That's a false distinction. bash has a (primitive, idiosyncratic) language built-in. So does PS. They also are both designed to glue together independent programs via the pipe abstraction. The difference is that PS has much more modern language constructs and capabilities. The fact that it hooks into the .NET API as well is only a convenience.
I disagree, Powershell is basically a way to script .Net. It has provider so you're able to hook into functionality throughout the OS, but Powershell really wants to be a first class .Net language (and it is).
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, and that takes care of the 'big ones', but you still have tons of other minor updates that are released every Patch Tuesday. I currently have Jenkins build an OS image every two weeks, just so our Deployment Server has an up to date image.
> released every Patch Tuesday. It is the second Tuesday of the month, not every Tuesday. They've only broken that pattern a handful of times in the years that they have been doing it when an "emergency" patch was required.
>> released every Patch Tuesday.
>It is the second Tuesday of the month
that's exactly what "every patch tuesday" means (notice the "patch" adjective).
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
"but there NuGet at least appears at least as powerful as similar options on other platforms" That seems unlikely (i.e. can we upgrade the whole OS with NuGet?), but it does look like it is, at least, aware of some of the problems an actual package manager solves.
Not sure if I was unclear, I was referring to NuGet package management for development , comparing it to e.g. similar systems such as npm.
No, I understood. It seems like NuGet is an acceptable substitute for npm...but neither is an acceptable substitute for apt or yum (whether for development or whatever).
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once a month is way too often. Even if your downtime requirements are "so high", once a month is ridiculous. For the sake of this example, let's assume you have customers that depend on your server being up, for the product/service they're paying you for. Tell the customers that you plan on rebooting once a month, and see how they feel about it.
Popular (gaming) services have weekly downtimes to patch servers, and while users are annoyed, they seem to get over it and keep playing just fine.
It's completely insane to have multi-hour downtime every week the way Blizzard does. Between that and their regionally segregated Battle.net (there's no good excuse that you can't play Hearthstone with anyone anywhere), they're basically stuck on server architectures from the 90s.
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#149I was going to say, "Finally! They've gotten it right after all these years of sucking so hard as to be unusable on servers." But, I did some digging into the github for OneGet ( https://github.com/OneGet/oneget )... And, they haven't gotten it right. Windows package management still sucks so hard as to make the OS unusable on servers (and annoying as hell on the desktop). This is seemingly a simple-minded downloader…
package management is going to suck on windows as long as permissions sucks on windows.
multiple times, i've been unable to delete my own damn files as administrator on windows machines, leaving me angry and frustrated. i've also been stuck in a catch-22 in the extended acl/permissions dialogs, unable to exit. all the googling in the world couldn't help me - it was just fuckin' broke.
sane package management can't exist on such a system. an assertion impossible to prove, but i'm right so far.
Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10
#150I was going to say, "Finally! They've gotten it right after all these years of sucking so hard as to be unusable on servers." But, I did some digging into the github for OneGet ( https://github.com/OneGet/oneget )... And, they haven't gotten it right. Windows package management still sucks so hard as to make the OS unusable on servers (and annoying as hell on the desktop). This is seemingly a simple-minded downloader…
Is application dependency management in windows normally a problem? Apart from the odd runtime, I expect Windows applications to be pretty much self contained, and not dependent on any system-wide libraries (which is a huge benefit I think). For development it's a different story, there you can have several levels of dependencies, but there NuGet at least appears at least as powerful as similar options on other platf…
> Is application dependency management in windows normally a problem?
It has its own name.