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Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

nytimes.com

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Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#61

Post by craigwblake »

Lancey wrote: post #9

It's unfortunate that it had to come to this, but I believe the rioters were justified in their actions. If the police departments in the United States do not account for their actions, or worse, defend officers that have committed acts that show an indiscriminate disregard for the well being of those they're sworn to protect, they should be prepared to face violent resistance from the people.

Are you aware that it's not the police or city who own the CVS? It's also not the police or the city who own the 7-11. It's not police or the city who own Binta's African Hair, or the community center, or the stores in the Mondawmin mall, or the McDonalds, or the majority of the other property that was damaged. It's individuals, private citizens, neighbors of those who are looting. Will you please explain how looting and burning down your neighbors private property is justified by civil rights violations that may have been committed by agents of the government?

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#62

Post by crusso »

MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #27
vinay427 wrote: post #2

"the police said some firefighters were reportedly having cinder blocks heaved at them as they responded to emergencies." That's pathetic.

And the cops helped start the riots by throwing rocks at protestors. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/police-throw-rocks-...

That's a bit of a leap to say that the cops helped start the riots because there are a couple of incidents of cops throwing something.

From the video on the link you referenced, it looked like the cops were in full retreat from a wild crowd throwing objects. One of the cops half-heartedly tossed something back... inappropriate response on his part, but hardly evidence that he was the instigator in anything.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#63

Post by Lancey »

engi_nerd wrote: post #19
Lancey wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were the police justified when they beat an unarmed suspect and denied him medical attention that would have saved his life? Were they justified when they refused to bring those responsible to justice?

Ah, I see you are advocating a new system where injustices are answered with further injustices.

There is no system in place where this can end with justice. Every time that justice has been called for in cases of police brutality against minorities over the past year, only once was that justice served. Murderers are at large, and richer for, injustices that were defended by the system. Those that are supposed to deliver justice consider themselves all-powerful and above the laws they should be upholding. Justice failed Michael Brown and all the others that died at the hands of police officers on a power trip. When justice doesn't work, what is there to turn to?

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#64

Post by TheCoelacanth »

SFjulie1 wrote: post #15

Northen America cities are really not geometrically in favour of law enforcement. L1 geometry + size of blocks gives an unfair advantage to the rioters. Which means law enforcement have to resort to excessive violence to squash demonstration, and the government to use excessive measures to protect social peace (such as spying their own citizens). Designing cities for cars and not the "humans beings" may have been a c…

I dislike the design of American cities as much as the next guy, but this seems like a huge stretch.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#65

Post by jbob2000 »

engi_nerd wrote: post #16
Lancey wrote: post #9

It's unfortunate that it had to come to this, but I believe the rioters were justified in their actions. If the police departments in the United States do not account for their actions, or worse, defend officers that have committed acts that show an indiscriminate disregard for the well being of those they're sworn to protect, they should be prepared to face violent resistance from the people.

How does "violent resistance from the people" against officers who "show an indiscriminate disregard for the well being of those they're sworn to protect" involve burning down a family owned business[0] that has nothing to do with the Freddie Gray case? How can you justify such acts? [0]: http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/04/28/ctn-cuomo-liquor-sto...

Because the police are responsible for protecting that business. If the police fail, then the business owner's faith in the police is shook up.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#66

Post by mc32 »

akilism wrote: post #7

This is what happens when you have an above the law police force that preys on entire neighborhoods that feel like they have been cast aside.

The problem isn't the police. The police are a good target of authority. The real problem is economic.

Even with all the current police injustices, the negative impact from them is less than the impact if they withdrew from the neighborhood. In that sense they are a net good. Of course people want the peace and prosperity reduced crime brings but also want less authority looking down but most of all they want economic opportunity when they know its available to other communities, its the immediate contrast which is most damning. I.e. your neighbors have it good and you don't and society tells you you can have too but for the life of you, it seems like a scam is being played on you.

This however is a long term issue. It's generational. The community has to help itself as much as it needs a helping hand from others. Community organizations which give people support, direction and even punishment. But lots of that is missing and you have disaffected people and opportunists who take these circumstances as an excuse for more violence instead of trying to build something positive.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#67

Post by Lancey »

crusso wrote: post #62
MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the cops helped start the riots by throwing rocks at protestors. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/police-throw-rocks-...

That's a bit of a leap to say that the cops helped start the riots because there are a couple of incidents of cops throwing something. From the video on the link you referenced, it looked like the cops were in full retreat from a wild crowd throwing objects. One of the cops half-heartedly tossed something back... inappropriate response on his part, but hardly evidence that he was the instigator in anything.

Police do a bad thing: "You can't blame all cops for a few bad apples in isolated incidents."

Protesters do a bad thing: "Pathetic rioters! Ungrateful youths! Sit down and do as you're told!"

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#68

Post by crusso »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #54
crusso wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about the police. It's about an entire society that has self-assembled into a caste system by treating some portions of the society as wards of the state. The wards of the state aren't expected to be independent and responsible. They're given handouts in exchanges for their votes, and over time you have a whole generation that can't take care of itself. That's when the state steps in to take care of its…

Yes let's blame poor people. You realise we don't have this problem in countries with even larger welfare systems because our police aren't so heavily militarised and given free reign with no consequences?

Where did I blame poor people? Why do discussions like this on HN have to be so twisted and toxic?

If anything, I would blame the political elitist class that uses shiny beads to buy power and then perpetuates the misery of their constituents by not giving them a good education and the means to improve their lot.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#69

Post by ceejayoz »

tectec wrote: post #38
ceejayoz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And sometimes it's deemed "sports fans taking to the streets". http://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-highlight-...

That list is misleading. One of the items is the Vancouver hockey riot in 2011. It was definitely called a riot at the time, and two years later they were still prosecuting the offenders. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vpd-rec...

The list itself states ESPN called that one a riot.

Part of the double standard is that even when it gets called a riot, we don't get the same hand-wringing about "where were the fathers", dog-whistle terms like "urban thugs", etc.

Re: Baltimore Residents Begin Clearing Debris After Night of Riots

#70

Post by Mtinie »

Lancey wrote: post #9

It's unfortunate that it had to come to this, but I believe the rioters were justified in their actions. If the police departments in the United States do not account for their actions, or worse, defend officers that have committed acts that show an indiscriminate disregard for the well being of those they're sworn to protect, they should be prepared to face violent resistance from the people.

I (personally) can almost rationalize rioting if the target of the violence is a symbol of the population that the mob see as their oppressor.

Take for instance, the Los Angeles riots in 1992. If significant mobs of rioters had streamed out of South Los Angeles, marched up La Cienega Blvd., taken a left on Wilshire, and then laid waste to establishments in Beverly Hills, it would make perverse sense.

However, for the most part, this didn't happen. While the violence and looting was geographically widespread across the Los Angeles basin, the neighborhoods where it happened were often the same ones that the rioters lived in. The same neighborhoods that their friends and families shopped in, played in, and ultimately where they continued to live in after the six days of rioting ended.

This represents something else than just a "justification". I'm not a sociologist, but as a person it's pretty clear to me that something else is going on if you decide to, proverbially, "shit where you sleep".

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