Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#41

Post by rhino369 » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

mox1 wrote: post #21

How come the overabundance of people practicing law has not driven the cost of lawyer related services down? (Supply and demand makes me assume this would be happening by now..)

A huge chunk of recent grads just aren't cut out to be lawyers. They can't write, they can't thoughtfully analyze issues, and they can't effectively advocate for their client.

But the big supply choke-point is the entry level job. Law school and the bar exam don't make you a passable lawyer. You need supervision for a while.

Nobody wants to pay for baby lawyers because they are slow and don't know what they are doing. So the big firms hire a bunch of people and work them to death. They can force their clients to pay for the baby lawyers because they are supervised "by the best." Also, these types of cases involve a lot of paperpushing that a smart baby lawyer can handle. The big firms need juniors to do that bitch work, but also because they'll need midlevel and senior associates to do a lot of real work. If you don't get them out of school, it's hard to get them as a midlevel associate (4-6 years out of school).

Midsize firms don't hire many junior associates. They can't afford to charge for the training. So they take people who leave the big firms.

Corporation's "in-house" legal groups also tend to avoid hiring baby lawyers because they only want seasoned vets. Although, this is changing a bit. Some companies with large legal departments discovered that new lawyers are so cheap, it might be better to just train them in house.

Small firms hire enough people to run their cases, which isn't a lot.

If you don't get hired out of the gate, it's very hard to get a legal job. You are seen as tainted. You never develop experience. And you fall out of the market.

I think roughly 50% of legal grads either never practice or only practice a few years and then quit.

Also, legal work isn't fungible. People specialize pretty quickly. If you start out doing DUI cases, you no longer compete with the guy who started doing patent work for F500 companies. It is as different as webdesign is from programming a self driving car.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#42

Post by panglott » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 5:11 PM UTC

M8 wrote: post #6

burnte wrote: post #3

I'm slowly working my way through school again in my mid-30s to go to law school, although so many lawyer friends have advised against it due to an overcrowded marketplace. I really haven't yet decided if I'll actually do it due to such horrid numbers...

Consider reading this: http://www.amazon.com/Worthless-Young-Persons-Indispensable-... Or at least watch some of his videos about degrees, e.g.: "Before You Get Your MBA or Law Degree" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQqXyfsye0

Wow, that books looks just priceless, almost a parody of the position it advocates, to judge by the Amazon reviews. English degrees are worthless, except perhaps if you want to avoid getting dinged by every other reviewer for your poor writing and grammar.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#43

Post by woah » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

peterjancelis wrote: post #35

mox1 wrote: post #21

How come the overabundance of people practicing law has not driven the cost of lawyer related services down? (Supply and demand makes me assume this would be happening by now..)

The market for legal services is an extreme power law. I used to run an online arbitration service where I paid arbitrators a fixed $150 for handling a case and was amazed at the caliber of people that applied. Former law firm partners, Harvard Law grads who worked on Capitol Hill before, legal scholars with published books, all of it. Turns out a tiny number of arbitrators can charge hundreds of dollars per hour for…

What happened to the service?

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#44

Post by zaccus » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #37

breitling wrote: post #27

Many have predicted for a while now that the next big crisis will be the default of student loans (approximated at over $1 Trillion). Perhaps the Law profession will lead the way, but there must be many other professions where people are getting degrees but not jobs. After-all, it takes a lot of people to accumulate $1 Trillion in debt.

But, in the US you can't "default" on student loans, they just keep accruing until the government starts to take it out of your social security payments. My step father is close to being in this situation, he went to medical school in his late 30's, didn't pay his loans for a couple years, and now nearing his 60's faces the probability that he won't actually manage to pay them off before he retires. The one loan you…

You can definitely default on student loans; plenty of people are. You just can't get them discharged in bankruptcy.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#45

Post by graeme » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #39

CurtMonash wrote: post #14

Irony not called out in the article: Despite poor job prospects for law school graduates, LSAT tutoring still pays well.

It pays amazing for a part time gig, but it's really hard to scrape together anywhere near 40 hours a week doing it.

This is a big factor. Students are only in the market for a couple months in most cases, so you need constant client intake.

The lack of a long run clientele reduces volume, and makes people only willing to tutor if they can get higher rates.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#46

Post by StillBored » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

zaccus wrote: post #44

StillBored wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, in the US you can't "default" on student loans, they just keep accruing until the government starts to take it out of your social security payments. My step father is close to being in this situation, he went to medical school in his late 30's, didn't pay his loans for a couple years, and now nearing his 60's faces the probability that he won't actually manage to pay them off before he retires. The one loan you…

You can definitely default on student loans; plenty of people are. You just can't get them discharged in bankruptcy.

I was trying to differentiate default on a student loan from defaults on pretty much everything else. I'm not sure your credit card company can block a professional license or garnish your wages. Plus, as I understand it, its pretty common for bankruptcy judges to adjust the principal, or remove fees/unpaid interest from other forms of defaulted debt, when the debt isn't directly discharged. This is apparently really rare for student loans.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#47

Post by graeme » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 8:21 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #36

CurtMonash wrote: post #14

Irony not called out in the article: Despite poor job prospects for law school graduates, LSAT tutoring still pays well.

I'm in this industry. Two comments. First, if you are going to law school, the ROI of a better LSAT score is astounding. Likely $200000 in scholarships and then who knows how much in future earnings. That is what justifies the high fees. But second, the market for LSAT tutors has actually shrunk dramatically. It's been cannibalized by an explosion in free/affordable online resources that are as good or better than a…

Written on my phone, hence typos. I'll correct one: the tutors name is Jonathan, no h. Oops.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#48

Post by Wingman4l7 » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 11:41 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #36

CurtMonash wrote: post #14

Irony not called out in the article: Despite poor job prospects for law school graduates, LSAT tutoring still pays well.

I'm in this industry. Two comments. First, if you are going to law school, the ROI of a better LSAT score is astounding. Likely $200000 in scholarships and then who knows how much in future earnings. That is what justifies the high fees. But second, the market for LSAT tutors has actually shrunk dramatically. It's been cannibalized by an explosion in free/affordable online resources that are as good or better than a…

Very brave of you to voluntarily contribute to your own profession's demise by helping to provide auto-didactic services.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#49

Post by graeme » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 3:53 AM UTC

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #48

graeme wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in this industry. Two comments. First, if you are going to law school, the ROI of a better LSAT score is astounding. Likely $200000 in scholarships and then who knows how much in future earnings. That is what justifies the high fees. But second, the market for LSAT tutors has actually shrunk dramatically. It's been cannibalized by an explosion in free/affordable online resources that are as good or better than a…

Very brave of you to voluntarily contribute to your own profession's demise by helping to provide auto-didactic services.

I used slightly equivocal language. The tutoring part of me has less demand. But I sell products too, and those do alright.

I think society is better off for having free/inexpensive products addressing this need, rather than many expensive tutors.

Re: Burdened with Debt, Law School Graduates Struggle in Job Market

#50

Post by peterjancelis » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 1:03 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #43

peterjancelis wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market for legal services is an extreme power law. I used to run an online arbitration service where I paid arbitrators a fixed $150 for handling a case and was amazed at the caliber of people that applied. Former law firm partners, Harvard Law grads who worked on Capitol Hill before, legal scholars with published books, all of it. Turns out a tiny number of arbitrators can charge hundreds of dollars per hour for…

What happened to the service?

Arbitration requires either an arbitration clause upfront or a mutual post-dispute agreement to arbitrate. The latter rarely never happens as cases are often quite clear or parties don't talk anymore, the former is rare for small claims where my $300 arbitration made sense.

So it turned out I was begging for scraps too. The only way similar services survive is by partnering with marketplaces and handling all their disputes. This leads to kangaroo courts cause the arbitration firm ends up having just a few large clients (the marketplaces) despite having hundreds or thousands of cases (the marketplace users).