What If Students Could Fire Their Professors? • Hacker News Board

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#21

Post by ColinWright » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:12 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #4

ColinWright wrote: post #2

Here's the take-away quotation for me: The better the professors were, as measured by their students' grades in later classes, the lower their ratings from students. "If you make your students do well in their academic career, you get worse evaluations from your students," Pellizzari said. Students, by and large, don't enjoy learning from a taskmaster, even if it does them some good.

I don't think that applies at the college/university level. Evaluations are at the end of the course and you will know if you have learned a lot. The problem is profs just reading the textbook or parts of the textbook in a powerpoint, without challenging students.

I see a common theme in this and your other comment[0]. In my experience, however, evaluations from students have next-to-nothing to do with how much the students have or have not learned, and that is the point of the linked study[1]. Quoting:

    > Controlled, randomized experiments find that
    > SET ratings are negatively associated with
    > direct measures of effectiveness. SET seem
    > to be influenced by the gender, ethnicity,
    > and attractiveness of the instructor.

The other link[2] says:

    > We find that teacher quality matters substantially
    > and that our measure of effectiveness is negatively
    > correlated with the students’ evaluations of professors.

Both these formal studies are at odds with what you seem to be saying.

========

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445924

[1] http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/~stark/Preprints/evaluations14....

[2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775714...

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#22

Post by tjl » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #4

ColinWright wrote: post #2

Here's the take-away quotation for me: The better the professors were, as measured by their students' grades in later classes, the lower their ratings from students. "If you make your students do well in their academic career, you get worse evaluations from your students," Pellizzari said. Students, by and large, don't enjoy learning from a taskmaster, even if it does them some good.

I don't think that applies at the college/university level. Evaluations are at the end of the course and you will know if you have learned a lot. The problem is profs just reading the textbook or parts of the textbook in a powerpoint, without challenging students.

I've only known a few profs who just read the text or parts of the text in powerpoint. Of the profs I was a TA for, only one used powerpoint and he made his own slides separate from the text.

It definitely applies. One of the best profs in my department often got poor evaluations in some of the first year courses she taught (which were required for everyone). But, she consistently gets excellent ratings for her 3rd year, 4th year, and grad courses (which were targeted for her specialty). She's known for being tough, but students can learn a lot in her courses and they actually do well. First years seem to think that they can get away with more because she's a short woman. She's had students try and suggest how to change her exams after midterms because they've taught swimming lessons. She once had a comment on RateMyProfessor.ca, "I'd say she worships Satan, but I think Satan worships her." It was eventually dropped after several years, but she wrote it in calligraphy and put it up in her office. We all thought that was very funny.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#23

Post by imron » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

> "Professors need to understand that their customers are those students,"

Perhaps professors should work for tips too /s

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#24

Post by ColinWright » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #13

sklogic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the end of the course they'd only know they've got an exam to pass and they'll hate it. Students should not have any say in anything related to their courses, professors, marking, workload and such.

No say at all? Not even trigger a review? Profs that consistently get poor reviews are getting them for a reason.

Possibly that reason is that the students are being made to work hard to get their grades, and not simply being given good grades for no work.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#25

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:13 PM UTC

tr352 wrote: post #15

bvrlt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even at the college/university level I have seen students complaining about professors that were fairly good, sometimes just because the grading was a bit tough.

Well those might be legitimate complaints. Professor is fine but his grading is too tough.

"Too tough" means "I didn't get the grade I wanted." Grade inflation is a real problem.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#26

Post by sklogic » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #13

sklogic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the end of the course they'd only know they've got an exam to pass and they'll hate it. Students should not have any say in anything related to their courses, professors, marking, workload and such.

No say at all? Not even trigger a review? Profs that consistently get poor reviews are getting them for a reason.

Back in my days in the university we (all the students) hated mostly the toughest professors. Now, many years later, the only stuff that I still remember well, to a degree that I can go and pass an exam, despite not using much of it in my work, is from the courses of those most hated professors.

And now students are much worse, they're expecting a "value for money", they want to be entertained. They do not like being pushed hard. Just look at all those disgusting stories:

http://sheffield.tab.co.uk/2015/01/29/devastated-economists-... (what kind of cretins can find such an exam "too complicated"?)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31814659 (another bunch of morons enjoying a right to have their say)

This crap must be stopped. Once and for all.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#27

Post by yodsanklai » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

ColinWright wrote: post #2

Here's the take-away quotation for me: The better the professors were, as measured by their students' grades in later classes, the lower their ratings from students. "If you make your students do well in their academic career, you get worse evaluations from your students," Pellizzari said. Students, by and large, don't enjoy learning from a taskmaster, even if it does them some good.

I'm not sure it is that simple. I believe most university students can tell the difference between a good and a bad professor and are honest enough to fill up evaluation forms in good faith. They are able to assess the involvement of their professors, the quality of the projects and the course material. On the other hand, they aren't qualified to discuss the relevance of the topic for instance.

I think this type of evaluation has a role to play in order to improve teaching, but shouldn't be given too much importance for evaluating professors.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#28

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

Siecje wrote: post #5

Dotnaught wrote: post #3

Everyone would get an "A"?

You can still not learn very much and still get a good grade. Students are attending to learn and will give negative reviews when they are not learning as much as they expected they would learn.

> Students are attending to learn and will give negative reviews when they are not learning as much as they expected they would learn.

I admire your optimism but I just don't think that's true in even half the cases.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#29

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #14

Siecje wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still not learn very much and still get a good grade. Students are attending to learn and will give negative reviews when they are not learning as much as they expected they would learn.

Students are attending to learn Depends very much on the course. A lot courses are attended by a lot of students who just need the course to fulfill some requirement and want nothing more than to get a pass with as little work as possible.

It's hardly the case that the same thing doesn't apply to students majoring in the subject.

Re: What If Students Could Fire Their Professors?

#30

Post by rickdale » Mon, Apr 27, 2015, 1:19 PM UTC

When I was studying CS in undergrad I took an upper level CS course that was suppose to end with learning assembly and building something with it. The class for whatever reason moved excruciatingly slow and we never got past the second or third project. The following semester my advisor who was also a cs professor pulled me aside and asked me, "what the heck happened in that class?" And after my answer he said he would take care of it.

For whatever its worth the professor that was teaching the class was and still is the head of the department. And the other professor I confided in retired the following year and moved to Florida. Probably unrelated, but I can see department politics fixing the issue of poorly taught classes.