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Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

nytimes.com

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Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#31

Post by smtddr »

kristopolous wrote: post #29
comex wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

I have another axiom I will dub "third-worldify". Take this story and replace United States with a "third world" country such as Turkmenistan or North Korea. Now, if instead it was, [Zambia] does so and so, is it believable? So therein you find your fallacy of exceptionalist presumption. If you think that, say, the Pakistani government could execute this, then I assure you the United States can. There's no magic chan…

It's because of this: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014

The only difference between USA's corruption and others, is that USA is super-good at hiding it.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#32

Post by seanmcdirmid »

smtddr wrote: post #31
kristopolous wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have another axiom I will dub "third-worldify". Take this story and replace United States with a "third world" country such as Turkmenistan or North Korea. Now, if instead it was, [Zambia] does so and so, is it believable? So therein you find your fallacy of exceptionalist presumption. If you think that, say, the Pakistani government could execute this, then I assure you the United States can. There's no magic chan…

It's because of this: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014 The only difference between USA's corruption and others, is that USA is super-good at hiding it.

Well, and of course, the entire scale of it compared to very corrupt countries where police ask for bribes whenever they feel like it.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#33

Post by icebraining »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #32
smtddr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because of this: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014 The only difference between USA's corruption and others, is that USA is super-good at hiding it.

Well, and of course, the entire scale of it compared to very corrupt countries where police ask for bribes whenever they feel like it.

Doesn't sound so different: https://www.aclu.org/blog/easy-money-civil-asset-forfeiture-...

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#34

Post by smtddr »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #32
smtddr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because of this: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014 The only difference between USA's corruption and others, is that USA is super-good at hiding it.

Well, and of course, the entire scale of it compared to very corrupt countries where police ask for bribes whenever they feel like it.

Sure, the "super-good" at hiding it == They make sure it's not right up in your face & you can't feel it in your day-to-day life; especially sure not to let the non-minorities or affluent feel it. My family and wife are from Nigeria. I've enjoyed going to the movies & the beach & to eat out at restaurants. However I've also been to some of the rougher parts and watched, from a taxi, my dad argue over bribes with 2 police(or military) men holding machine guns. In USA, as long as the corruption is mostly impacting the poor and/or minorities it's not a problem. In fact, I'd love to know the economic & demographic breakdown of responses to the perceived corruption and the questions from that website. It'd help me to know if I'm right or completely off base in my assumptions.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#35

Post by Istof »

junto wrote: post #11
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

Obama did say everything he needed to be elected.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#36

Post by kmonsen »

junto wrote: post #11
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

There is also a long history of doing this, just one example: https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi%20mlk

Another (not so clear) example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scan... He was called "Wall Streets worst nightmare", and suddenly he has to resign because he spent time with a prostitute.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#37

Post by discardorama »

smtddr wrote: post #30
comex wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

They don't have to reveal where the data came from. You got crazy(read: anti-status quo) ideas and you're getting close to being able to implement them? .... NSA leaks info to your opponent(s) and/or media (loves destructive info already) ... and suddenly your opponent comes by with it. In shock you go, "How did you get this info?!!!" Opponent says "...I have my sources..." Or the news doesn't even approach you; they…

> .... NSA leaks info to your opponent(s) and/or media(loves destructive info already)... and suddenly your opponent comes by with it. In shock you go, "How did you get this info?!!!" Opponent says "...I have my sources..."

They already do something similar: it's called parallel construction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#38

Post by discardorama »

logicallee wrote: post #3

I had the exact opposite reaction to Snowden's revelations about the NSA that everyone else did. Prior to that, I had thought it is a ridiculous infringement on people's privacy. I thought it was terrible what the NSA was doing. I advocated heavily for anyone thinking about heading in that direction to rethink their life, and work on something constructive. Snowden revealed so much more data collection than anyone co…

> I support the NSA in siphoning off all the data, ...

... says the guy hiding behind a "stealth" startup.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#39

Post by deafeningblow »

kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

Threats never have to enter the equation. At that level people can disappear, cars malfunction, health happens.

If you're running for president, you've scratched the right backs and suppressed any distasteful political ideas you may have had. You aren't a threat because you've been vetted by the power structure already.

I do agree that the surveillance state now exists to maintain power in all spheres. Exposing yourself is handing over a large chunk of that power, which is where I disagree with your sentiment.

Just think of the value of knowing what your foreign competitors are up to, on national and economic levels.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#40

Post by maxerickson »

kmonsen wrote: post #36
junto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that to be true, that would mean that the existing president would have been campaigning to curb the powers of the NSA before he became president and then afterwards flip flopped, changed his mind and backed off to the point of supporting more surveillance. No way! That actually happened! [1] my god, why aren't the American public and press even asking these questions? However, he must have changed his mind for s…

There is also a long history of doing this, just one example: https://www.google.com/search?q=fbi%20mlk Another (not so clear) example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scan... He was called "Wall Streets worst nightmare", and suddenly he has to resign because he spent time with a prostitute.

Spitzer was also evading financial regulations.

Or do you mean to imply that it was a fabricated hit job? Because to me it seems to be a real problem when a law enforcement official is giving himself special treatment.

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