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Contrast Rebellion

contrastrebellion.com

31–40 of 74 posts

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#31
post #21
post #2

Discussion from last time around: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2807047

It has been 4 years. Has the rebellion made gains?

I think not. I go into details here: http://unreadable.website/guide.html ...

The biggest problem is the screen on say a MBP is different than an X240 or an XPS13. Next time you are in a big box retailer look at them side-by-side - each screen can access a quite dramatically different contrast and color space.

So the low-contrast issue is a manifestation of the classic "works for me" bug. A "cozy" distance on one display become irritatingly illegible on another.

The WCAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/) calls for a 4.5:1 ratio ... make this 7:1 or so and you are good.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#32
post #17
post #4

Many of the examples looked borderline to me. How much contrast is 'enough'? Also - surely this is something that should be fixable in the OS or browser? OSX has an high-contrast accessibility mode. Do we really need to fix this at source?

> do we really need to fix this at source? Yes. Otherwise you are chosing to exclude people.

Any choice you make will exclude some people. The colorblind won't be able to read it if you use some color combinations. Using such high-contrast fonts hurts my eyes and thus excludes me from enjoying it as much.

It's likely people arenot "chosing to exclude", but rather happens to as a byproduct. It's far more likely someone chose low-contrast because they wished to help visitors eyes or for aesthetic purposes, not because they woke up that morning and said "Gosh I hate the sight-impaired".

Being able to read a webpage is not a universal right. It is not the onus of the webpage to make itself readable. You don't demand that japanese webpages offer klingon translations when they only wish to reach a japanese audience simply because they're excluding those poor soles who prefer to read klingon, do you?

It's perfectly reasonable to expect a user of the webpage to make it usable for themselves, whether that be by running it through google translate or turning on their OS's high contrast mode or whatever.

The fact that the choice excludes people should not be bandied as if it's a real argument.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#33
post #30

Well, what I'm to say here… If you are site owner and you feel that colors hurt conversion/number of visitors/time spent on page/whatever else you care about — you probably should change the colors. If you are a visitor and you feel that colors of the site you'd like to use discourage you to do so — you probably need to help yourself and make a custom CSS of your own (using Stylish or something) to satisfy your very…

> If you are a visitor and you feel that colors of the site you'd like to use discourage you to do so — you probably need to help yourself and make a custom CSS of your own

This attitude is hostile to a wide range of people who already have to fight the computer to get things done and shouldn't have to fight the stupid decisions made by bad designers.

> nobody fucking cares.

For various values of "nobody" including "some people", where some people means any group subject to various disability discrimination laws in whatever countries they operate in.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#34
post #23

I got a radical idea: do not touch the body text/background colors and let user agent/browser pick the colors according to users preferences.

The new reader modes that browsers are adding let you kinda do this.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#35
post #24

People should filter colors and fonts the same way they filter ads. Its easy.

A tiny number of people filter ads.

Why should bad designers get to force a bunch of people to fix mistaken web design choices?

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#36
Despite praising high contrast, this site hypocritically throws away contrast for no good reason. I can understand using non-white backgrounds, because it can reduce glare, but using grey text is pure fashion. This site uses color:#191919 text. As always, the only good solution is user CSS to set it to #000000. I use the Stylish addon for Firefox to let me toggle this quickly for sites with light or dark color schemes.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#37

They may have gotten the contrast thing right but they totally messed up on the fonts. I rarely comment on style because I think the substance is what we should focus on but for a site that goes out of its way to criticize one particular design parameter I don't get how they could mess up so badly on another. That's just ugly.

Aesthetics and legibility are two different things. Lumping them both together under "design parameters" misses the point.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#38
post #32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do we really need to fix this at source? Yes. Otherwise you are chosing to exclude people.

Any choice you make will exclude some people. The colorblind won't be able to read it if you use some color combinations. Using such high-contrast fonts hurts my eyes and thus excludes me from enjoying it as much. It's likely people arenot "chosing to exclude", but rather happens to as a byproduct. It's far more likely someone chose low-contrast because they wished to help visitors eyes or for aesthetic purposes, not…

> It's perfectly reasonable to expect a user of the webpage to make it usable for themselves, whether that be by running it through google translate or turning on their OS's high contrast mode or whatever.

No, it isn't. By deliberately choosing terrible contrast a designer is choosing to exclude people with visual impairment. That's why accessible websites is written into law and contrast is written into best practice guidance for making a website accessible.

> Being able to read a webpage is not a universal right. It is not the onus of the webpage to make itself readable.

There's quite a few situations where accessible websites are a human right. (Eg government websites would be covered by article 21).

When you say "of course you can't read this website; you have a visual impairment" you are passing the blame. But the job of a website team - the thing they are paid for - is to provide information that's accessible to the target audience. It's not my job to read that information. I'm probably not getting paid to read the website.

And bad contrast choices aren't just hard to read for people with visual impairment. They're hard to read for someone on a different monitor or in different lighting.

> You don't demand that japanese webpages offer klingon translations when they only wish to reach a japanese audience simply because they're excluding those poor soles who prefer to read klingon, do you?

You started by saying this was not about choosing to exclude people but here you clearly show that someone has made the choice to exclude a group. The difference being that it is fine to exclude speakers of a made up language; it's not acceptable to exclude disabled people.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the fewer words you know to refer to colors, the more contrast matters to you? :)

This rings a bell inside my head; given people from a language/culture with two different words for what English speakers would identify as barely different shades of the same colour, they are objectively better at identifying those two shades than the native English speaker. Which essentially gives the answer "yes" to your question. Here's a reference that might be what's ringing inside my head: http://www.newscient…

This "Russian experiment" is a bit weird, as though it's true that "синий" usually refers to darker colors and "голубой" to the lighter ones, both colors to chose from could be referred to as "синий" or "голубой" interchangeably. Actually, it's not that clear what is "синий" and "голубой" anyway: sky is like The "синий", but quite often referred to as "голубой" instead, but somebody's eyes almost never are referred to as "синий": maybe only if you want to emphasize how unusually bright they are. But if your dress would be the same color as the eyes, it could be called "синий" easily.

What I'm trying to say, there's no that big difference between these two words in Russian to explain the experiment results, unlike what was shown to us on that video about some African tribe. More like "purple" and "violet" — there clearly is a difference, but many people would fail even to point which one is which, and some might even argue about that.

Re: Contrast Rebellion

#40
post #4

Many of the examples looked borderline to me. How much contrast is 'enough'? Also - surely this is something that should be fixable in the OS or browser? OSX has an high-contrast accessibility mode. Do we really need to fix this at source?

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/

Section 12 talks about how to detect the high contrast mode used by the OS.

One problem is that low-contrast does not just affect those with a visual impairment. It affects people with a different OS (the gamma on mac and windows is different), on differnet monitors, in different lighting, and with different but not impaired eyes. Most people won't be using high contrast mode because it sucks, and because bad web designers refuse to use high contrast fonts - why are they going to bother detecting high contrast mode?

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