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Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

nytimes.com

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Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#21

Post by jacquesm »

logicallee wrote: post #12
rmxt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture you've painted isn't comforting at all . It's absolutely terrifying. You're drawing these comparisons against communication edge cases (blackmail and a descent into anarchy), rather than realizing that the vast, vast, majority of conversations are banal. Banality notwithstanding, that doesn't mean it's okay for them all to be sucked up and stored forever. Common people keep their FB and Instagram set to p…

I don't think the rule of law is an edge case. Blackmail happens every day. You make a really interesting point with this: >given the opportunity, I bet those people would have opted to leave behind a crafted and consented-to image, rather than having their laundry aired out for all to see for eternity. But I wonder: is a well-crafted idyllic image of history worth a limited understanding of humanity as a result? I t…

> So thanks for your comment, but I do not find it convincing and am leaving my comment up.

What would convince you?

How bad a transgression would you need before you would say: "Hey, wait a moment, that's not what I had in mind when I sanctioned this!".

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#22

Post by comex »

kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no evidence leaks out fingering the government, only if no low-level employees with knowledge of the program, here 10x as contrary to American values as what actually happened[1], turn whistleblower. Once it did get out, it would presumably be a truly Watergate-level scandal, since you suggest behavior similar to Watergate.

Hanlon's Razor - just because it sucks at catching terrorists doesn't mean it wasn't motivated by a desire to Do Something.

[1] I don't think spying on the populace comports with American values, but harassing people for their political speech is a whole 'nother ballpark.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#23

Post by jacquesm »

comex wrote: post #22
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

Not so absurd if you take fairly recent instances like this into account:

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo...

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#24

Post by logicallee »

jacquesm wrote: post #21
logicallee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the rule of law is an edge case. Blackmail happens every day. You make a really interesting point with this: >given the opportunity, I bet those people would have opted to leave behind a crafted and consented-to image, rather than having their laundry aired out for all to see for eternity. But I wonder: is a well-crafted idyllic image of history worth a limited understanding of humanity as a result? I t…

> So thanks for your comment, but I do not find it convincing and am leaving my comment up. What would convince you? How bad a transgression would you need before you would say: "Hey, wait a moment, that's not what I had in mind when I sanctioned this!".

Firstly, I didn't sanction it.* They have no right to do this and should vehemently deny it. Anything to the contrary is deeply illegal (by the supreme court of the land), and needs to be met with sanctions and repercussions, up to and including dismantling the NSA.

Any level of transgression would make me take affirmative steps in this direction.

* by the way I'd avoid using the verb 'sanction' ever as it means both punish/discipline ('they were sanctioned by the court') or it means approve of ('the plan was sanctioned by the court') with just a grammatical hair of difference. to be clear, here, like you I mean the latter, 'approve of'.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#25

Post by jacquesm »

logicallee wrote: post #24
jacquesm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So thanks for your comment, but I do not find it convincing and am leaving my comment up. What would convince you? How bad a transgression would you need before you would say: "Hey, wait a moment, that's not what I had in mind when I sanctioned this!".

Firstly, I didn't sanction it.* They have no right to do this and should vehemently deny it. Anything to the contrary is deeply illegal (by the supreme court of the land), and needs to be met with sanctions and repercussions, up to and including dismantling the NSA. Any level of transgression would make me take affirmative steps in this direction. * by the way I'd avoid using the verb 'sanction' ever as it means both…

It is illegal whether or not they acknowledge it. Much as you may dislike it you are - in my opinion - actively approving this by writing what you did above. Either that or I completely fail to understand your position.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#26

Post by belorn »

comex wrote: post #22
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

Blackmail is not about publishing, its about knowing something which someone else do not want published. As soon you publish it, all your power goes away.

Of course, simple blackmail would be a poor use of such information. Much better to use it to create missinformation, know who in the targets environment that is weak, and how to subtle encourage internal disruption in the ranks. You can even identify who is likely to become the next president from early age, and then recruit those before they can become a threat to the party.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#27

Post by rmxt »

logicallee wrote: post #12
rmxt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture you've painted isn't comforting at all . It's absolutely terrifying. You're drawing these comparisons against communication edge cases (blackmail and a descent into anarchy), rather than realizing that the vast, vast, majority of conversations are banal. Banality notwithstanding, that doesn't mean it's okay for them all to be sucked up and stored forever. Common people keep their FB and Instagram set to p…

I don't think the rule of law is an edge case. Blackmail happens every day. You make a really interesting point with this: >given the opportunity, I bet those people would have opted to leave behind a crafted and consented-to image, rather than having their laundry aired out for all to see for eternity. But I wonder: is a well-crafted idyllic image of history worth a limited understanding of humanity as a result? I t…

I think the fact that modern historiography can present both the benevolent and the dubious sides of America's founders' histories without the use of what you are proposing is a testament to mass surveillance's needlessness. We don't have a limited understanding of humanity for the past 2000 years, we have a pretty darn good one, and an even better one for the past 500 years. Do you sincerely believe that the best way to advance humanity in the future, while respecting the well-being of people living today, is to suck every last drop of everyone's communications into a storage pool, let some unknown entity run unknown analyses on it, towards unknown ends, at unknown (direct and indirect) costs?

Ultimately, quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Frankly, based on your writing, it seems like you think you would be fit to do so...

> I also have personal theories about good and doing the right thing, and I'd hope either that a few hundred years from now everyone agrees with me; or that I learn enough about humanity to improve my own understanding by the time I die.

Everyone has their personal theories about doing good, but not everyone believes that everyone else needs to be watched 24/7 by other humans in order to keep performing that good.

EDIT: I am not trying to silence your opinion or suggest that you take it down. I appreciate countervailing opinions. I do, however, have a hard time appreciating the apparent smugness and ease with which you suggest that everyone should eventually come to the same conclusions as you, because (obviously) that (mass surveillance as a historical artifact, and as a present-day crime deterrent) would benefit humanity.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#29

Post by kristopolous »

comex wrote: post #22
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

I have another axiom I will dub "third-worldify". Take this story and replace United States with a "third world" country such as Turkmenistan or North Korea.

Now, if instead it was, [Zambia] does so and so, is it believable?

So therein you find your fallacy of exceptionalist presumption. If you think that, say, the Pakistani government could execute this, then I assure you the United States can.

There's no magic change in the greed of power from one land to another.

Re: Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

#30

Post by smtddr »

comex wrote: post #22
kmonsen wrote: post #9

Does anyone seriously think the program is actually to stop terror? It is here to control the population in the country. Oh you want to run for president with ideas we don't like? It would be sad if someone publishes all this data we are sitting on.

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. The article shows what extreme lengths they went to to keep the program secret; suddenly they're going to go around publishing data, perhaps masquerading as traditional hackers, but still significantly tipping their hand? That's the kind of thing that might work once or at most twice, only in the presence of a decently sized conspiracy (not that those don't crop up at times), only if no…

They don't have to reveal where the data came from. You got crazy(read: anti-status quo) ideas and you're getting close to being able to implement them? .... NSA leaks info to your opponent(s) and/or media(loves destructive info already)... and suddenly your opponent comes by with it. In shock you go, "How did you get this info?!!!" Opponent says "...I have my sources..." Or the news doesn't even approach you; they just blast it online/TV and wreck you, the end. Journalists don't have to tell you how they got the info at all. Anonymously by mail, whatever.

NSA's collected data is perfectly (ab)usable without revealing its source and to believe it hasn't already happened numerous times is denial. There must be all kinds of unrevealed scandals they're sitting on and it's undeniable human nature that at the government level the knowledge of these scandals hasn't been used as leverage on people. I can't even accept NSA employees haven't numerously abused their access to spy on friends & family.

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