Declassified Report Shows Doubts About Value of NSA’s Warrantless Spying

I don't think the rule of law is an edge case. Blackmail happens every day.

You make a really interesting point with this:

>given the opportunity, I bet those people would have opted to leave behind a crafted and consented-to image, rather than having their laundry aired out for all to see for eternity.

But I wonder: is a well-crafted idyllic image of history worth a limited understanding of humanity as a result?

I think that in the startup world we can understand that there are often two stories: one is a marketing story; but another is the sad reality of the hustle early-on. Later once companies have succeeded, it is all right (I think) to admit to the hustle.

Another example was that surely the founders of America would not have wanted to be remembered as tyrannical slave-owners. But while we present the noble story of the enlightenment and ideals of freedom ("all men are created equal"), at an advanced level we learn that they did not practice this literally. Does it take away? We remember their achievements and progress, and the story they wanted to leave behind. Not their foibles.

Orson Welles got his acting start in theater in London, lying and saying he was a well-known actor in the United States. He was a complete rookie. Though the production manager had his doubts about the story, he gave Welles a shot.

How does the existence and knowledge of this fact take away from the story of Orson Welles, creator of Citizen Kane which is considered by many to be the greatest work of cinema in existence?

Welles is an inspiration to many. So are startup founders who have to hustle.

I think being brutally honest about humanity gets us farther than not having this information at all. Perhaps it would only concern people at the University doctoral level, but I don't think the existence itself of this information is a net loss for humanity.

I also have personal theories about good and doing the right thing, and I'd hope either that a few hundred years from now everyone agrees with me; or that I learn enough about humanity to improve my own understanding by the time I die. When I learn new facts, I update my understanding.

So thanks for your comment, but I do not find it convincing and am leaving my comment up.

Yes, you are right. Collecting all this info in the first place is diametrically opposed to the security of individuals, companies, and the state. It is like a nuclear power plant, with a reactive fission core that has to be very well-contained. And then the 'waste' has to be put away for 500 years. It's diametrically opposed to environmental safety.

I completely agree with you that it needs to be incredibly tightly controlled. It's precisely the fact that I learned that, in fact, this was largely the case that left me impressed with them.

It was as though you have learned that there has never been a nuclear meltdown, but, unbeknownst to anyone, nuclear has been providing cheap, low-pollution energy throughout the world for decades, while being very well-run. That was leave you with a sense of both uneasiness, but perhaps respect that it has been done well.

I will say that I think that some of the people collecting all this data are like how some 'hoarders' of copyrighted, etc, files feel and behave. They kind of feel like if there is data (bits) that are out there, they should have a right to get them.

This does not ordinarily make someone want to do damage with it, and perhaps the employees of the NSA care more about siphoning up everything than using it for any harm.

Overall I would agree that it is a very dangerous thing to exist, and would require the smartest people on the planet to keep secure; as well as deny the existence of it at all.

I think there's a huge difference between them admitting to what they're doing, or doing it in secret. They should completely deeply deny everything they're doing. While retaining the capability for when someone decides to be a genuine evil person. You just can't be one these days and have any success! This is as it should be.

They should not admit to anything, which would have a chilling effect on free speech. I want to be able to live my life in complete freedom from any oversight or surveilance :)

that is the difference between the free world and a dictatorship.

I disagree with you to such a level that I'm letting it anger me. With that being said, I upvoted you. This is a worthwhile comment, to see how other people might see the world.

I don't want to attack you on a case by case basis, other people have done that enough. But as a completely superficial criticism, you should know that one of the staples of anarchism is that it relies on strong communities.

> Everybody knows what happens under an anarchy, or a complete lack of rule of law: people spend their energies arming up personally, as opposed to building relationships, products, ideas, or being productive. People don't trust each other. Might makes right.

"I'll take this-guy-has-no-idea-what-anarchism-is for $1000, Alex."

Go look at any anarchist society that existed. Then look at the US today. Tell me which is more selfish and concerned with their own well being.

We are not living our lives for posterity, we are living our lives for us.

It's the little helpers that are the problem, not the NSA per se, all those presumably normal, respectable and intelligent people that see nothing wrong with this are the heart of the matter.

Here in nl with some regularity the 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' bull-shit gets trotted out and it is really aggravating but at the same time it helps to have a window into the minds of those that would be happy to live in a world like that.

Me, I'd rather see whole generations of criminals walk free than to see the world lose all those things that were hard-won not all that long ago.

Every thread like this eventually converges on comparisons with the former Third Reich and we tend to shy away from that comparison because obviously the differences are legion but at the same time you have to really worry what a future political powershift could do with the data they would have at their disposal. At a guess any resistance would be dead before they even got to first base.