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Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

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31–40 of 69 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#31

I'm surprised at how passive aggressive some of these answers sound. I imagine many of you have worked some poor managers who weren't very good at their job. That will make you question why they deserve to get paid so much. For the record, as a manager I've had staff members make as much as I have. I believe a (good) manager gets paid a lot because they make their team more productive, focused, and happy. a good mana…

I find managers who see themselves as visionary hero's, who mentors subordinates often forget engineers are capable people with their own ideas, self motivated with skills they probably don't have themselves.

They dont need to be lead, but helped to self organise and to stop external interference.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#32
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" … because they are solid communicators, work well in teams, and have organization skills." And, in my experience, because those communication skills result in them asking for more money more often - and having good explanations ready about why it'd be a good outcome for both the manager and the company. Engineers are, to a first approximation, all woefully bad at asking for more money.

I hate to say it, but the engineers are often really bad at everything but the software engineering and the discussions about comic book characters.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#33

In most companies, business knowledge is key. The more knowledge you have about how the business operates the stronger you are. Beautifully architectured applications are great, but you need to be able to make the right choices for the business, rather than simply complete task from start to finish. On top of that, managers generally got into that position because they are solid communicators, work well in teams, and…

But business/domain knowledge is at least as useful for the software engineers as it is for the manager, so I don't quite see how that explains the pay gap.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#34
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" … because they are solid communicators, work well in teams, and have organization skills." And, in my experience, because those communication skills result in them asking for more money more often - and having good explanations ready about why it'd be a good outcome for both the manager and the company. Engineers are, to a first approximation, all woefully bad at asking for more money.

I hate to say it, but the engineers are often really bad at everything but the software engineering and the discussions about comic book characters.

May I suggest you have a specific stereotype of an engineer and that this causes you to have an observational bias which self-fortifies this notion?

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#35
Not sure that engineering managers even really make that much more than engineers, at least not at medium or large tech-focused companies. Salary ranges at this level tend to have a pretty large overlap. I've been places where the engineer salary range extended past the manager range. On average, I'd guess managers maybe make 10-20% more. But that's nothing compared to the 10X-100X more that the senior execs and CxOs make. That's where you really have to ask whether it makes sense.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#37

Having been in the industry for 15 years, and having been both a hard developer and an engineering manager, my two cents: 1- managing a team of engineers WELL is really hard, and requires a broad range of skills. Granted, there are a lot of bad managers out there, particularly in engineering. 2- managers aren't getting paid for their productivity, or even their time. They are getting paid for judgment and accountabil…

Good points. Anytime I hear a bunch of engineers talking about not needing a manager (not you, but in this thread) I cringe, and I'm an engineer. Managing personalities and getting people on the same page is hard. I liken it to a bunch of NBA players saying they don't need a coach. Phil Jackson made a career of taking the best players with the biggest egos and getting them to play together.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#38

Don't get too caught up on which job role has more risk, responsibility, or communication skills. Salaries are apportioned based on how close a job role is to the company's revenue stream. Executives come out on top because they control the money and payscales. Sales is often second because they can very easily point to new revenues and say "I brought that in". Profit center staff (most Valley engineers) would be som…

Salaries don't get apportioned. You either bring value, or you don't.

If you can make a company £1m by yourself, you should have no problem getting a £500k salary.

If you and your team of nine programmers can bring in £1m then it's reasonable to pay them £48k and pay yourself £66k.

If you want to make more money, just make more money.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#39
Throughout human history, in all hierarchical work structures, people higher up been remunerated better.

The main reason it is this way is that the organization grows by adding "leaf nodes" at the bottom, as cheaply as possible.

For instance, say you have a business in which you're the only employee, consisting of laying bathroom tiles. You make decent money, but you do this messy work all day long. You want to work less and make even more money. Hmm, what to do? Your options:

- Move to Beverly Hills and be a "tiler to the stars", charging more.

- Get an assistant to work faster.

Usually, the second approach is selected (with the first possibility being kept in mind for the future).

The next step is to let the assistant work independently, while you go to a different site, or work on business activities like advertizing or consulting with customers.

Then, you get multiple such assistants working on multiple sites. Of course, these workers are not nearly as well paid as you are when you do the bathroom, because some of the revenue goes to you (remember your goal: make more money).

The workers are not well paid is justified because all they do is show up to a designated site, and do the work with materials and tools supplied by the company. They accept that if they want more money, they have to become independent, which means doing things like advertizing, consulting with customers and such. Some of them don't even see themselves making such a move.

Okay, so now you have multiple installations going on in parallel and you're not laying tiles yourself so much. You go from site to site during the day, checking on these workers, and from time to time you see they are doing some things wrong and so you teach them the craft. Everyone treats you with fear and respect, and so you think, damn, I want even more money!

To make more money, you expand the organization even more: more active sites at the same time. Now the problem is that there are too many sites. Previously you could visit each site several times a day to supervise work. Then it was just once a day, and now there are too many sites; if you visited them all, then you would spend all day going from site to site.

The solution is to get some middle management: supervisors. Just like you, they are paid more than the individual installers. If they were paid less, why would they do that job, instead of just working as installers? They are experienced installers: they know the craft and can tell if something is not being done right. Yet, they don't make as much as you do, otherwise what would be the point of all this expansion?

So the pattern here is that the bottom-of-the-org-chart installers do not make any more money as the operation expands; in fact they probably make less as the organization grows bigger, though their employment is more stable. They have to work to sustain the overhead of all these additional people.

In other words, an operation expands so that there can be higher levels that make progressively more money.

If you have any salary inversion in the tree, then people will not want to be at that position in the tree. Supervising people is a headache! Why would anyone take less money to manage some people, if he or she could obtain an instant raise just by dropping down one level and joining them?

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers tend to make more money than engineers?

#40
post #9

Kind of like asking why those engineers still make +100x more than the workers at the factory in China that manufactures their computers and smartphones. It's called capitalism and it thrives on inequality. Whoever can be exploited - will be.

Because those engineers produce more value for their employers than the factory workers.

It's not "inequality", it's just a cold, hard, fact no matter how much it makes us feel uneasy. I've seen this opinion a lot with individuals who don't understand that "creation" need not be linked to a physical product, or with manual labor.

Now, if you'd get back to comparing apples to apples, we'd compare those same "engineers" with "engineers" in third-world countries. And then you have to go back and ask yourself WHY companies aren't just moving their operations to those countries so as to make a bigger "cut" from that cheap labor.

Multitude of reasons can be chalked-off to for that. But one of them is government-enforced restrictions on immigration, free-trade and licensing. Both for skills, and of education.

And when you get to that point, you realize that this "exploitation" you speak of would actually benefit those third-world engineers. And the entity preventing said "exploitation" from occurring is the "noble" government. The thing that everyone loves to never blame for problems, but always worships when it comes to solutions, even if the problems those solutions are for are caused by them in the first place.

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