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Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

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Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#401
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be, if the company that does it has a monopoly in the market of operating systems, which would give that company an unfair advantage in the market of browsers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp .

Poor wording for my part, it must say "it is not an anti competitive practice per se"

Right, the fact it is not illegally anticompetitive per se shows that it is an answer to your original question.

> Doing an anti competitive practice is legal if you don't have a monopoly?

A practice being anti-competitive (in a legal sense) depends on the act being done by a company that is a monopoly, or part of an oligopoly.

For example, a company giving their product away for free is not illegal per se. Say, as part of a promotion, in order to get their product in consumer's hands instead of a competitor's product. In a healthy market, this is a valid way to do business.

But, if the company that decides to give their product away for free is a monopoly, and the result of that act is squashing what little competition might exist or is entering the market, then this same act (giving the product away for free) is illegal.

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting your prices is competitive. Cutting your competitor's throat is anti-competitive.

dumping

It took me a little while to figure out that your one-word post meant the practice of selling below cost to gain market share, with the intent to force marginal competitors out of your business and gain pricing power to be used later to make up for the losses.

I am not convinced that this practice is worthy of concern. I don't think that a short-term predatory pricing loss incurred by a dumper can ever be recovered. This opinion is based mostly on the personal belief that the substitution effect is far greater than most economists care to admit, particularly when the potential substitution is to not buy anything at all.

You can't dump alfalfa to bankrupt existing hay growers and then make a killing by raising alfalfa prices once you dominate the market. Why? Farmers will feed their livestock gummy bears[0]. And then they will plant their own damned hay crops at the very next available opportunity. The net result is that you go bankrupt, too, because you took a huge loss right before killing your own market.

[0]http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/23/us-usa-cattle-cand...

http://www.naturalnews.com/037351_cattle_candy_marshmallows....

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/10/news/economy/farmers-cows-ca...

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#403
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a monopoly might put you under the microscope, but you certainly can't get away with anticompetitive practices like price fixing or wage fixing even if you don't have a monopoly.

Can you link to specific examples of companies being found guilty of things like price fixing and wage fixing, where the company was not a monopoly, or part of an oligopoly?

Well there's this case, which got a lot of HN coverage:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/16/silicon_valley_415m_...

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite comparable to what Apple's doing. Here's a better analogy: Amazon sells set-top boxes. Apple TVs, Rokus, the works. They also sell HDMI sticks, like Chromecasts. All of a sudden, they come out with a product called the "Fire TV". It integrates with Prime, and in comes in either stick or box form, depending on your preference. All is well in the world. But then, all of a sudden, Apple and Netflix and…

First of all, Apple isn't PULLING apps now that the Apple Watch is released. The Pebble app is still there, and you can still use it. This whole uproar is about a single developer who had his app denied by a specific reviewer at Apple for a basic breach of their terms and conditions for putting Apps on the App Store. The general consensus seems to be that a simple rewording (maybe not even having to remove the word '…

> First of all, Apple isn't PULLING apps now that the Apple Watch is released. The Pebble app is still there, and you can still use it.

For now.

A better analogy would be if Amazon suddenly refused to stock new Apple TVs and Rokus and Chromecasts in its warehouses and only stocked Fire TV devices, if we want to get all semantic about it.

> This whole uproar is about a single developer who had his app denied

There are multiple apps affected per the linked discussion.

> by a specific reviewer at Apple

No, by multiple reviewers on multiple occasions. Even appealing the decision results in the same response ("don't reference Pebble in your metadata").

> for a basic breach of their terms and conditions for putting Apps on the App Store

That's only being enforced for Pebble-related apps now that the Apple Watch has been released.

> The general consensus seems to be that a simple rewording (maybe not even having to remove the word 'Pebble') is all that he needs.

Apple's response (when SeaNav tried to appeal) was specifically to remove the word "Pebble". It's not a wording issue; it's an issue with that specific word existing in the metadata.

> Also, a theater buying a TV/Radio station and not allowing competing theaters to run ads is perfectly acceptable and realistic.

That's not what the more accurate scenario describes; you're still getting this backwards. It's the TV/Radio station buying/building a competing theater and preventing new ads from existing theaters that the corrected scenario describes.

> Just because one gets very large and popular doesn't suddenly mean the rules have to change for it.

Yes they do, per U.S. and European (at the very least; probably others are included) antitrust laws. Using one's market position to conspire to monopolize runs afoul of them.

And even if it weren't strictly illegal per se, it sure as hell doesn't mean that we should just lay back and let Apple do what it wants. What's the harm in calling them out on their dickery? A free market relies on an informed consumer base; such call-outs - at the very least - might put market forces in the consumers' favor for once.

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#405
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's Microsoft, which has been penalized on various occasions in the States and the EU despite not actually being a monopoly (there were plenty of other operating system vendors out there, Apple among them). And then you have Google, which has been taking quite a bit of flak from Europe lately.

I'm sorry, could you be more specific? Please link to specific cases that meet the criteria (antitrust cases where the company is found guilty of anti-competitive practices that do NOT involve the company abusing their (mon|olig)opoly power in a certain market). Both those companies are involved in many cases, antitrust or otherwise, and I'm unable to find one that fits the bill. I think you (and digi_owl) are incorr…

Neither of them were or are actually monopolies (Google isn't the only search engine in the world, and Microsoft wasn't the only PC operating system vendor in the world even during the 90's), so literally any of the cases you've found would be applicable.

An antitrust case can still be levied for conspiring to become a monopoly (as Microsoft did with its strongarming of OEMs combined and its bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows). Apple has even run afoul of that at various times (like when it got dinged for its monopolistic behavior regarding e-books; it certainly didn't have an actual monopoly, but that still fell under antitrust regulations).

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#406
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, could you be more specific? Please link to specific cases that meet the criteria (antitrust cases where the company is found guilty of anti-competitive practices that do NOT involve the company abusing their (mon|olig)opoly power in a certain market). Both those companies are involved in many cases, antitrust or otherwise, and I'm unable to find one that fits the bill. I think you (and digi_owl) are incorr…

Neither of them were or are actually monopolies (Google isn't the only search engine in the world, and Microsoft wasn't the only PC operating system vendor in the world even during the 90's), so literally any of the cases you've found would be applicable. An antitrust case can still be levied for conspiring to become a monopoly (as Microsoft did with its strongarming of OEMs combined and its bundling of Internet Expl…

> Neither of them were or are actually monopolies

"Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson issued his findings of fact on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp...

A company does not have to be the sole supplier in a market to be considered a monopoly in the eyes of the law.

> Apple has even run afoul of that at various times (like when it got dinged for its monopolistic behavior regarding e-books; it certainly didn't have an actual monopoly, but that still fell under antitrust regulations).

But that case didn't just involve Apple. It also involved the oligopoly of book publishers, who worked with Apple to engage in price fixing against Amazon.

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#407
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to specific examples of companies being found guilty of things like price fixing and wage fixing, where the company was not a monopoly, or part of an oligopoly?

Well there's this case, which got a lot of HN coverage: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/16/silicon_valley_415m_...

Looks you're correct, thanks. Reading up on this a bit, I was wondering if Apple/Google/Intel/Adobe/etc constituted an oligopoly, but I don't see how that could true in this case. Also reading up on the Sherman Antitrust Act (which is what they were in violation of), the section that applied here does not require a monopoly or oligopoly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act#Elements

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#408
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of them were or are actually monopolies (Google isn't the only search engine in the world, and Microsoft wasn't the only PC operating system vendor in the world even during the 90's), so literally any of the cases you've found would be applicable. An antitrust case can still be levied for conspiring to become a monopoly (as Microsoft did with its strongarming of OEMs combined and its bundling of Internet Expl…

> Neither of them were or are actually monopolies "Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson issued his findings of fact on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp... A company does not have to be the sole supplier in a market to be considered a monopoly in the eyes of…

That still leaves us with Google, which (as far as I know) is not considered a "monopoly" by any measure of the term.

With that said...

> Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly

If you read further in the paragraph you quoted, you'll find that Microsoft was specifically engaging in monopolization (i.e. the process of becoming a monopoly), which was the specific reason why it got dinged. It also states the and in there - that they had taken measures to disrupt attempts to counter their monopolization.

This analysis is consistent with the Sherman Antitrust Act (the law under which Microsoft was cited), specifically Section 2: Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony [. . . ]". It's also consisted with the Sherman Antitrust Act's intent, as specified by its authors (George Hoar: "... [a person] who merely by superior skill and intelligence...got the whole business because nobody could do it as well as he could was not a monopolist..(but was if) it involved something like the use of means which made it impossible for other persons to engage in fair competition.").

This isn't even mentioning the failure of the court to recognize that there were viable altneratives to Windows that, in their words, "a significant percentage of consumers world-wide could substitute for Intel-compatible PC operating systems without incurring substantial costs". GNU/Linux (which was designed for "Intel-compatible PC"s to begin with), three of the four mainstream BSDs (NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD), OS/2, and a variety of other operating systems existed at the time of that ruling. The only way the ruling's rationale would hold true is if they interpreted "Intel-compatible" to mean "Windows-compatible", in which case the ruling is directly applicable to Apple's behavior now (since Apple - like Microsoft then - is attempting to monopolize the application ecosystem of iOS; if Microsoft can get dinged for monopolizing a specific market segment, then so can/should Apple). In this case, Apple is "attempt[ing] to monopolize" smart watches within the the iOS application market (just like how Microsoft "attempt[ed] to monopolize" browsers within the Windows application market). The difference is that Apple's attempts are much more obvious.

Disclaimer: IANAL.

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#409
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because someone else breaking the rules is no excuse for you breaking the rules. It's like when you were a kid, and you tried to say, "But Johnny's doing it!".

Yeah, but when you don't think you're actually breaking the rules, "you never did anything about that guy" is good support. This is not a case of somebody breaking the rules and trying to say that the rules do not apply. This is a case of the rules suddenly being reinterpreted to mean something completely different from what they used to mean. Imagine if you stepped on a worm and then got arrested for murder. Would i…

"Yeah, but when you don't think you're actually breaking the rules, "you never did anything about that guy" is good support."

No, it isn't. The other guy is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is, YOU broke the rules.

Re: Apple now rejecting apps with Pebble Smartwatch support

#410
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither of them were or are actually monopolies "Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson issued his findings of fact on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp... A company does not have to be the sole supplier in a market to be considered a monopoly in the eyes of…

That still leaves us with Google, which (as far as I know) is not considered a "monopoly" by any measure of the term. With that said... > Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly If you read further in the paragraph you quoted, you'll find that Microsoft was specifically engaging in monopolization (i.e. the process of becoming a monopoly), which was the…

Sorry buddy, you've gone off the deep end here. Microsoft was found in a court of law to have a monopoly in the OS market, and used their market power illegally. Full stop. This is not a controversial fact. You are at best mincing words, and at worst misrepresenting history, to suggest something different.

> That still leaves us with Google, which (as far as I know) is not considered a "monopoly" by any measure of the term.

I don't know how you've come to this conclusion. It is very reasonable to argue that Google has a monopoly on internet search. Whether they are engaging in antitrust is more unclear, but they wield an amount of power in the search market that no other company even gets close to.

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