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Everyone has JavaScript, right?

kryogenix.org

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Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#31

Post by protomyth »

donatj wrote: post #26

I find more and more sites using JS for layout and it being an incredibly frustrating experience on my phone. The whole site loads and I'm reading the article for 4 or 5 seconds and then the js kicks in, scrolling locks, everything stops while The page redraws. On some sites, including Android Centeral of all things, this can stop me from reading text I ALREADY HAVE for upwards of 20 seconds while it reflows. Simply…

At this point my mobile experience is go to website, read a couple of sentences, watch javascript muck with the layout as you describe, then a full screen popup wanting me to register or download the app, followed by a part of the top of the screen with a app store link for the app, then I get to read the article - maybe.

I think we need something that is to websites as markdown is to word processor files.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#32

Post by donatj »

protomyth wrote: post #31
donatj wrote: post #26

I find more and more sites using JS for layout and it being an incredibly frustrating experience on my phone. The whole site loads and I'm reading the article for 4 or 5 seconds and then the js kicks in, scrolling locks, everything stops while The page redraws. On some sites, including Android Centeral of all things, this can stop me from reading text I ALREADY HAVE for upwards of 20 seconds while it reflows. Simply…

At this point my mobile experience is go to website, read a couple of sentences, watch javascript muck with the layout as you describe, then a full screen popup wanting me to register or download the app, followed by a part of the top of the screen with a app store link for the app, then I get to read the article - maybe. I think we need something that is to websites as markdown is to word processor files.

I'd like a browser that just removes all the CSS and JS and gives me simply the text, like Safaris reader mode, but without the need to ever leave it.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#33

Post by forgottenpass »

protomyth wrote: post #31
donatj wrote: post #26

I find more and more sites using JS for layout and it being an incredibly frustrating experience on my phone. The whole site loads and I'm reading the article for 4 or 5 seconds and then the js kicks in, scrolling locks, everything stops while The page redraws. On some sites, including Android Centeral of all things, this can stop me from reading text I ALREADY HAVE for upwards of 20 seconds while it reflows. Simply…

At this point my mobile experience is go to website, read a couple of sentences, watch javascript muck with the layout as you describe, then a full screen popup wanting me to register or download the app, followed by a part of the top of the screen with a app store link for the app, then I get to read the article - maybe. I think we need something that is to websites as markdown is to word processor files.

I think we need something that is to websites as markdown is to word processor files.

We sorta had that, but CSS and Javascript got bolted on.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#34

Post by chriswarbo »

cabirum wrote: post #6

Right, but these problems are not specific to javascript requests. Any request can fail, be blocked, interfered with, or partially received. Users can switch off CSS, too. Html page may not load completely. So what? Some of these issues are fixed with https or http/2. Some with CDN fallbacks or just sane coding. Some are not developers problems - such as clueless users installing malicious extensions or luddite users…

> such as clueless users installing malicious extensions or luddite users switching off js.

So if I run arbitrary, potentially-malicious code from the Web, in the form of a browser extension, I'm "clueless"?

Yet if I don't run arbitrary, potentially-malicious code from the Web, in the form of JS, I'm a "luddite"?

Considering that many browser extensions are implemented in JS, the only difference is in control: users can pick and choose which browser extensions they want to use (I use a few; I've skimmed the source of a couple and written a couple myself), whereas enabling Javascript turns a machine into a third-party free-for-all.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#35

Post by pharke »

indeyets wrote: post #18
cabirum wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9432629 The web is no longer a collection of text content with links and forms. Many, is not most, web apps cannot be represented using html alone as progressive enhancement suggests. The core functionality just isn't there.

Initial server-side rendering is still an option. User will be able to read the page, at least. And if URLs use a sane scheme, navigation would work too

and if there's nothing on the page to read?

Should every chat app have a non-JS fallback option? Do we need to implement all color scheme, layout and templating tools in pure CSS?

Facetiousness aside, the web is most definitely not just text based anymore. Whether we like it or not, the web is now in part visual (and aural) and is becoming increasingly moreso. This is not a bad thing. It provides a platform for rapidly developing and deploying applications that cover the full gamut of uses we have thought up for the personal computer.

Using JS to simply display static content is overkill and not the best use of the technology and it is absolutely correct to say that this is better served by using Plain Old HTML. That is not the entirety of the web anymore and the more I see this argument that every web app must support a text only interface the more it sounds to me like an argument for every television show and movie to be produced as a radio drama with pictures.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#36

Post by Angostura »

donatj wrote: post #26

I find more and more sites using JS for layout and it being an incredibly frustrating experience on my phone. The whole site loads and I'm reading the article for 4 or 5 seconds and then the js kicks in, scrolling locks, everything stops while The page redraws. On some sites, including Android Centeral of all things, this can stop me from reading text I ALREADY HAVE for upwards of 20 seconds while it reflows. Simply…

I almost reflexively hit the 'Reader View' button on iOS these days, to circumvent that.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#37

Post by Mithaldu »

donatj wrote: post #32
protomyth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point my mobile experience is go to website, read a couple of sentences, watch javascript muck with the layout as you describe, then a full screen popup wanting me to register or download the app, followed by a part of the top of the screen with a app store link for the app, then I get to read the article - maybe. I think we need something that is to websites as markdown is to word processor files.

I'd like a browser that just removes all the CSS and JS and gives me simply the text, like Safaris reader mode, but without the need to ever leave it.

On the desktop you can get that with Opera 12. It has a toggle to switch off CSS (and of course js) and you can make it a button next to the adress bar.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#39

Post by pharke »

ant6n wrote: post #20
zupa-hu wrote: post #15

While the point may be true, it's like don't drive a car because people do die in car accidents. The post is misleading as most of the cards present rare edge cases where JS doesn't work. Show percentages as well. Yes JS may not work 0.1% of the time. So let's fix it once all the higher priority issues are fixed.

The comparison is not very good. There are plenty of arguments around not driving cars; safety is a valid concern.

That's in the same ballpark as saying there are plenty of reasons to not use fossil fuels or there are plenty of reasons to not use English as a lingua franca or plenty of reasons to not eat meat.

There are lots of good reasons to not do any of those things but until you come up with a universally acceptable alternative and convince the majority of people to adopt it, you're shit out of luck.

Re: Everyone has JavaScript, right?

#40

Post by mariusz79 »

pharke wrote: post #35
indeyets wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Initial server-side rendering is still an option. User will be able to read the page, at least. And if URLs use a sane scheme, navigation would work too

and if there's nothing on the page to read? Should every chat app have a non-JS fallback option? Do we need to implement all color scheme, layout and templating tools in pure CSS? Facetiousness aside, the web is most definitely not just text based anymore. Whether we like it or not, the web is now in part visual (and aural) and is becoming increasingly moreso. This is not a bad thing. It provides a platform for rapid…

> Should every chat app have a non-JS fallback option?

Is it really that hard to add "We're sorry but your page did not load correctly" ?

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