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The Slow Death of the University

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Re: The Slow Death of the University

#121
post #69

This was easily one of the wittiest and funniest articles I've ever read from a British author... But why shouldn't vampires be more lauded than Victorians? Why should Jane Austen, with her painfully circumlocutions, be more academically welcome than that woman (forget her name) who wrote 50 shades of gay? In many ways, old "classical" works are telling the exact same stories as modern "trash novel" works, except the…

In asking the question of why modern things such as "things that are currently fashionable to today's 20 year old's" are less worthy for study than traditional subjects, these phrases were given:

>free of misunderstandings

>less obfuscated

>clever literally mental contortions

>intentionally confusing

I imagine you would be seeking to understand the difference, and seeking to understand why some things that may appear obfuscated and confusing to a modern person are thought of by many to be better. I hope I can help the understanding via this comment.

Pretty much all poetry for example is full of misunderstandings, obfuscated, with clever literally devices and it is intentionally so. Consider poetry then! Think about why many people value poetry over a clear concise newspaper article. Why do humans like art, why do people like these confusing things? Do they actually enjoy the confusion, or is it something else that they enjoy?

Your example is Jane Austin vs 50 shades of grey. Perhaps other comparisons would help. How about Dan Brown vs Shakespeare? How about Beethoven vs Bananarama? How about Turner vs Bob Ross? Do these comparisons help in understanding what defines a quality piece of work? Do you think that a university that for two years examines Dan Brown in it's literature department will continue doing so when Dan Brown no longer becomes popular and Game of Thrones becomes popular? What does that say about the educational and artistic value of an author when they are forgotten a few years later?

Should the subjects of universities be decided by the consumers, the young students? Or should they be decided by the academic establishment? What difference would that make to education, to critical thinking? This is some of what the article was about.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#122

I wonder if this death of criticism is misty eyed nastolgia for a future that either never, or rarely existed. Let's not forget that our so-called great universities: - For a long time excluded women, Jews and many minorities. - Were the providence of only the technocratic elite. - Did very little research before the 20th century. And now that the costs escalate out of control, is it any wonder that they have to go m…

Let's also not forget that what was so amazing about post-war education is that it went exactly opposite to the points you stated: it became subsidised, democratized, inclusive to lower socioeconomic classes in general and to minorities and women, and started to do more genuine research.

There's little misty-eyed nostalgia for 18th century universities, there is for the 1970s.

The issue for me isn't that 10k tuition fees is so bad (once you add non-teaching staff, or teaching-supporting staff, rent for facilities, administration, equipment, licensing access to libraries etc it'll be at least 15k). It's the fact that studying is supposed to be a full-time occupation. We don't ask of 12 year olds to work a 40 hour week, but we do of 20 year olds despite the fact they have as many classes but a higher study load outside of class.

Now if we consider that studying ought to be a full-time occupation, there's obviously an opportunity cost to studying or lack thereof. It's not just having to pay 15k per year for tuition, it's also forgoing the opportunity to work a job and make money to pay every expense a non-studying adult human normally needs to pay, rent, food, insurance etc. Another $15k per year is on the low-end.

So you end up with 30k over 4 years, at an average of 5% interest rates you easily graduate with 150k debt.

This is unworkable. So we require of students to work extra jobs next to their studies, knowing juggling a 70h work week for years on end while still living under crappy circumstances negatively affects studies, health etc. We require students to choose jobs that are most financially rewarding (knowing all too well that pursuing remuneration over everything else leads not to happiness, and that at the higher end the correlation between salary and benefit to society is weak). We see students accessing higher education with funds from family, something reserved for the (upper) middle class, and even for these kids it's very normal to have to not view studying as a full-time occupation despite being enrolled in a full-time program, and even so average debt in many countries sits around 30-50k.

Meanwhile, a country like Germany is offering free tuition, without having invented a magic money machine.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#123
post #108

"It would also seek to restore the honorable lineage of the university as one of the few arenas in modern society (another is the arts) in which prevailing ideologies can be submitted to some rigorous scrutiny." Then the battle is lost, because universities, at least in the USA, are the home of "free speech areas" and not letting people speak who a group disagrees with. When people are talking about "safe areas" to p…

University should be the one place where Crocker's rules apply to all participants BY VIRTUE OF THEIR SIGNING UP FOR UNIVERSITY. http://sl4.org/crocker.html If scientific facts (so-called "HateFacts", think Evolutionary Psychology) offend you, it's your problem really.

Evolutionary psychology should be careful about what it elevates to scientific "fact", because quite a lot of it as quoted by people seems to be just-so stories with no hard evidence.

The "interpretation of archeological artefacts" kind of science is a lot less durable than the "reproducible double-blind experiment" kind.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#124
I think the crux of the problem lies in the sheer number of students who attend college today; as the author points out:

    "It is true that only about 5 percent of the British population attended university in my own student days, ... [today] that figure has risen to around 50 percent..."
The reality is that teaching critical thinking doesn't scale nicely, because it requires an intimate dialogue; the process of rigorously critiquing ideas is a two-way street. In today's institutions, where professors lecture to classes of 200+ students, this simply isn't possible.

In the article, the author claims universities have abandoned their roles as centres of critical thinking due to capitalistic forces. While I think this is true, I also believe that our collective attitude towards university shares the blame. Unfortunately, college is seen as the only legitimate path to success after high school.

If students had more opportunities to explore their interests, instead of being funnelled into university, perhaps universities could re-establish themselves as institutions where critical discussion takes place.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So law is in a way programming?

It's writing (legal) code that you can run on judges.

Except that very little of the code (e.g. contracts) that get written ever run and the people who debug the code (litigators) aren't the same people who wrote it in the first place. Also the people who wanted the code written in the first place have never actually read it are convinced it says something different to what it actually does say....

It would be an interesting project to create an artificial court/judge into which you feed a contract and an argument and get a response out.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's writing (legal) code that you can run on judges.

Except that very little of the code (e.g. contracts) that get written ever run and the people who debug the code (litigators) aren't the same people who wrote it in the first place. Also the people who wanted the code written in the first place have never actually read it are convinced it says something different to what it actually does say.... It would be an interesting project to create an artificial court/judge i…

So it's like programming?

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that very little of the code (e.g. contracts) that get written ever run and the people who debug the code (litigators) aren't the same people who wrote it in the first place. Also the people who wanted the code written in the first place have never actually read it are convinced it says something different to what it actually does say.... It would be an interesting project to create an artificial court/judge i…

So it's like programming?

Programming where you never run your code.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't the overproduction of Phds drive down university costs? I hear you on the bogosity factor. I wonder why this persists. Perhaps because by the time someone realizes it's all BS, their career it too invested in exposing it?

Shouldn't the overproduction of Phds drive down university costs? Most cost increases appear to come from technology, ancillary services (gyms are popular punching bags in this regard) and administrative staff (everything from diversity deans to grant writers). I hear you on the bogosity factor. I wonder why this persists. Perhaps because by the time someone realizes it's all BS, their career it too invested in expos…

In theory technology costs should drive others down, no? But that's more true in the corporate world than non-profit or government which the universities resemble.

I agree on tenure costs. It seems like they're really bloating the system in the name of academic freedom. I get it at the large research universities where the professors bring in lots of research money, but is it really worth it elsewhere? People say it's a bulwark against poor administrators making short term decisions, but that's what the rest of the world has to deal with too.

Perhaps just timeboxing the tenure part would work. "The department has X tenured slots. After 65, you can stay on as an untenured professor emeritus at a lower salary."

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#129
post #3

This is only mildly related to the article, but does anyone else have difficulty imagining what others' jobs are? For example, I'm just young enough to remember a time when I thought a programmer was someone who hid in a closet to slam at a keyboard for nine hours a day, but that notion was only corrected by entering the workforce. What about my other misconceptions? There's no way to learn about all of them firsthan…

Maybe also a good question is "what should they do". A lot of jobs are rubbish. That opinion rubs people the wrong way for totally acceptable reasons, but only a hundred years ago, around 90% of people were farmers. Today it's 2%. I think it's fair to say that the cataclysmic effect that our human economy is having on the planet can not last in it's current configuration. Most people should be employed in building an…

I think you're ignoring the possibility of technical progress. Who says we will even need food in 100 years? Eating dying plants and dead animal bodies is, on the whole, a very, very inefficient way of getting energy from the sun.

Re: The Slow Death of the University

#130
post #79

"It would also seek to restore the honorable lineage of the university as one of the few arenas in modern society (another is the arts) in which prevailing ideologies can be submitted to some rigorous scrutiny." Then the battle is lost, because universities, at least in the USA, are the home of "free speech areas" and not letting people speak who a group disagrees with. When people are talking about "safe areas" to p…

> When people are talking about "safe areas" to protect students from words spoken by a speaker, then criticism is dead. I understand what you're getting at, but some people really do have PTSD, and some speeches really do contain things like graphic recountings of abuse. Should those people just not attend university? (I'm actually undecided.)

I took a class on child abuse while at college. To say it had graphic recountings of abuse would be an understatement. It was one of the most extreme experiences I had during my time there.

On the first day, the professor told the class that we would be getting into some pretty extreme material, and if at any point someone needed to leave class or even skip it, to just let him know and schedule some one on one time with the professor. That seems to have worked as a good solution. Far better than banning that class or censoring material.

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