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Why Americans Are Going Abroad

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Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#31

Post by timoth »

bruceb wrote: post #26
timoth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems part of the problem is that: > You have a great passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else. could be said about many other countries which don't tax non-residents on their financial affairs in the country in which they've chosen to live. So I think some find it hard to see how the US can justify it.

Except the passport obviously not all of it as I said. If you are paying that much tax then paying $2k to not be American isn't that high.

Naturally it isn't. But those other countries maintain their roads, schools etc. etc. without taxing non-residents on their financial affairs in other countries. The main point is the difference between how the US handles the tax issue vs. almost all other countries.

Now you mention it, renouncing citizenship seems relatively costly compared to e.g. the UK, though I have no idea what the average cost is for renunciation. Perhaps the UK is abnormally cheap! (EDIT: Should probably have pointed out that it's currently £144, or about $215.)

It would seem a shame if people felt they needed to renounce citizenship to avoid hassle/tax. Of course, some may argue that if they want to renounce at all, then perhaps they're not committed enough anyway, but I wouldn't argue that.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#32

Post by Fuxy »

bruceb wrote: post #15

Immigration is complex but what I hate is the BS and half lies that are told like this author does. "We debate immigration and border controls for Mexico ad nauseum, yet, on the whole, the typical immigrant isn’t Mexican." Like many newspapers the author is trying to blur the line between legal and illegal immigrant. The reason we are talking about border controls is because yes most come from Mexico. The typical per…

You seem to be putting the US on too high of a pedestal.

Reality is the US is not all that and you can get most if not all the opportunities you're talking about somewhere else maybe even better healthcare and unemployment benefits without having to pay tax to a country you're not even using the public services of.

I have multiple citizenship and I would find it unacceptable if any of the countries demanded more then their fair share or charges.

Having to pay to renew you passport or processing other paperwork is acceptable paying tax to a country you don't live in isn't.

Having to pay 2K to renounce you citizenship is crazy and the fact that a lot of people still do shows how bad the policy and taxes are.

Reality is owning a US citizenship in a foreign country when you have no intention of coming back is detrimental to your financial well being.

I'm not much for patriotism and other such niceties looking at it as a cold business transaction it is detrimental to the owner with very few benefits compared to other countries.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#33

Post by seivan »

Tharkun wrote: post #19

Bloody immigrants. Go back to your own country. Oh wait, sorry, Americans aren't immigrans, they're expats. My bad. Double standards on immigration are pretty shitty.

I know you were just trying to be frivolous and sarcastic, but it doesn't help the debate.

You're just as bad at treating immigration as a homogenous group like genuine xenophobes.

You do realise there are valid points to being against certain parts of immigration - which most people are, they're against certain parts of it.

For instance, these people aren't refugees, they are however treated as refugees https://m.facebook.com/MissionDawahSverige Even though they openly support ISIS.

I call them invaders or invasion force, but that's for a lack of a better term.

However Sweden treat them as refugees and count them as "children" - (yeah even with the beard)

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#34

Post by tallanvor »

Tharkun wrote: post #19

Bloody immigrants. Go back to your own country. Oh wait, sorry, Americans aren't immigrans, they're expats. My bad. Double standards on immigration are pretty shitty.

I consider myself an expat at the moment because while I have no plans to move back to the US, I also don't plan on renouncing my citizenship. But I use that definition for people from other countries as well - I know people from Australia, the UK, Germany, India, Japan, etc. who I consider to be expats. If you're willing to give up your citizenship, then you're an emigrant in my eyes.

But I'm also getting much closer to being willing to give up my US citizenship... The only benefit is that I can decide to go back to the US if necessary, and given the political crap there, that's an increasingly depressing thought.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#35

Post by kjjw »

pjc50 wrote: post #24
lotsofmangos wrote: post #5

For comparison, when asked in the UK Parliament, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs gave an estimate for the number of British nationals living abroad of around 13 million people. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/v... Which given the UK population of 64 million, is a massive diaspora and completely dwarfs the 7.5 million foreign-born residents in the UK. edit - these…

It's the legacy of colonialism. There is an assumed right for Brits to go anywhere we want. It looks like a majority of the Brits abroad are in Commonwealth countries, which is sort of what I'd expect. Over a million in the US! If you look closely at UK newspaper comments/letters complaining about immigration, quite a few of them are from people living in Spain. And one of the more notorious anti-immigrant columnists…

What I find particularly funny is that:

- a positive net immigration rate into the UK has been critical in continuing to develop our economy,

- those people from the UK living in Spain will, mostly, be retired people,

- those newspaper comments will complain bitterly about immigrants not contributing, stealing welfare, and so on. Which is exactly what those people complaining are doing, and exactly not what the people they complain about are doing!

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#36

Post by davidw »

technomancy wrote: post #22
davidw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote in the state you last resided in or even the place you feel is 'home' in the US. I still participate in Oregon elections, for example. http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/abroad/leg... I don't know the details for people who have never lived in the US, but they are entitled to vote, being citizens. Being forced to pay taxes is an unwelcome burden with few benefits, but you can vote if you l…

Parent's point is that your Oregonian congressman is not looking out for your interests but those of his resident-constituents. If emigrants comprise a population roughly equivalent to Maryland, why don't they get their own representation?

His point was "taxation without representation", which is false. Your point is more nuanced and interesting, I think. I suspect it'd take changes to the constitution to enact, so is likely not feasible, unfortunately.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#37

Post by IkmoIkmo »

dataker wrote: post #14

> Italy makes it remarkably easy for descendants of Italian emigrants to claim citizenship, for example Hm... No. It took me 4 years to obtain my Italian citizenship(from my mother). We almost had a court battle for them to accept a missing letter(literally).

Friend of my dad's moved to Italy, learned to speak the language fluently and spent every day of his 20 years or so there working hard and being an upstanding citizen. He started a family there, but because he missed some paperwork early on, his kids never became Italians and neither did he or his wife.

So yeah his kids were born in Italy, all grew up in Italy, speak Italian fluently (natively), went to school there etc, but eventually they all moved away as they don't have citizenship. They're now mostly in the US. They run businesses and all have advanced degrees.

My dad spoke with him a few times about getting citizenship but it'd be a very long process. They've essentially committed to a life elsewhere.

In other words, there seems to be absolutely no reason for them not to be Italians, other than some kafkaesque messed up bureaucracy that servers no actual purpose.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#38

Post by klunger »

bruceb wrote: post #26
timoth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems part of the problem is that: > You have a great passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else. could be said about many other countries which don't tax non-residents on their financial affairs in the country in which they've chosen to live. So I think some find it hard to see how the US can justify it.

Except the passport obviously not all of it as I said. If you are paying that much tax then paying $2k to not be American isn't that high.

It actually costs a great deal more than that. You have to pay 5 years of expected future taxes upfront, in addition to the processing fees. This can be an enormous sum, depending on your income sources. If you just have a regular job and no investments, it is easily more than a whole year's salary. It is insane. In Norway, you generally have to renounce your prior citizenship to get Norwegian citizenship, but they consider it such a financial burden here to renounce US citizenship that they sometimes let you keep it (varies by individual situation).

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#39

Post by raverbashing »

bruceb wrote: post #26
timoth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems part of the problem is that: > You have a great passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else. could be said about many other countries which don't tax non-residents on their financial affairs in the country in which they've chosen to live. So I think some find it hard to see how the US can justify it.

Except the passport obviously not all of it as I said. If you are paying that much tax then paying $2k to not be American isn't that high.

Not all of it what?

Canadians are not taxed abroad and they have better healthcare than the US. Same with Germany

No question that the USA has a lot of opportunities, but one thing they are #1 is sense of self-importance.

Re: Why Americans Are Going Abroad

#40

Post by jkot »

bruceb wrote: post #15

Immigration is complex but what I hate is the BS and half lies that are told like this author does. "We debate immigration and border controls for Mexico ad nauseum, yet, on the whole, the typical immigrant isn’t Mexican." Like many newspapers the author is trying to blur the line between legal and illegal immigrant. The reason we are talking about border controls is because yes most come from Mexico. The typical per…

I understand that major problem with taxes is how complicated it is. Accountancy fee could be thousands dolars even if yoy pay zero taxs.. Some foreign banks even refuse to open bank accounts to US citizens, because of complications.
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