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A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

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Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#21

Interesting to see the justification for screwing engineers on the pay. EDIT: To clarify--the idea of commission is effectively an equity stake in either the revenue or profit (depending on the setup, right)? So, the sales folks see an immediate return on their work. The engineers, while salaried, have no such visceral link to the performance of the product...just some trivial paper and the thin sliver of hope they w…

Here's a good article on why Fog Creek does not pay sales commissions: http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/ We don't pay sales commissions at my company, and it works well for us. It does help the sales department to work more as a team.

I'd definitely be interested in knowing more about your company, davideous. I have no doubt that not paying commissions can work for some companies. And getting comfortable with paying commissions to salespeople took me, personally, a really long time. (Too long, from the perspective of being a good CEO and doing what needed to be done to move my company forward.)

The arguments in the Fog Creek post sound right, and really resonate with those of us who are engineering/product people. But they don't match the reality of my own experience. At least for the high-cost, high-touch, long sales cycle stuff that I have the most experience with, the best salespeople all want their compensation to be heavily weighted towards commissions. So if you want to hire the best sales reps -- and, just as with engineers, you really, really want to hire the best -- you have to recognize and understand that preference.

But I'd be happy to be wrong about this! In addition to Fog Creek, I remember reading another blog post about a startup that doesn't pay commissions. Maybe a Foundry Group company: Moz? I can't find that post now, though.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#22
post #3

Why should lead generation be outside the control of the sales group? Isn't marketing about a lot more than just lead generation? I always thought the best salespeople either come with there own long list of leads, or they are good at generating new leads, or both.

I've done a lot of lead gen in my career. Mostly it was of the one-to-many kind where I'm managing scaleable marketing programs, vs. the one-to-one kind where I'm dialing for dollars. There was a very brief stint doing the latter which occurred when a sales guy was promoted to run sales and marketing and thought that would be more effective--I quickly had some data to prove him wrong.

In any event, marketing is in fact about a lot more than lead gen, but lead gen is a very measurable piece, and also the one that sales reps have the most visibility into and are thus most vocal about.

Some sales people will be expected to prospect, but often the person who is great at hunting (ie. prospecting) is not necessarily the best at closing. Very different skill sets. Also, you want your closer focused on closing, not worrying about filling his pipeline.

Doing one-to-many lead gen at scale requires vastly different skills that many (most?) salespeople simply do not have. For example, managing an AdWords campaign, or setting up analytics.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#23

How much commission is typical for sales people? Is it a percentage of the amount the deal is closed for? Is it a percentage of the customer LTV?

It really depends on your biz model and there are many variations. At my company we do 1.5% of the monthly revenue of each client the sales person has "closed." Typical monthly value of a client is around $20k and we have no cap on commissions. Reps are also the first line of defense when it comes to customer service for their clients. This works great for us because the reps who provide the best customer service typ…

Thanks. Just for your example, do they only get their commission after the client has paid?

Just general curiosity as I am technical and I have no idea how their models work. The three things that I am familiar with are:

1) I give you a small discount of my dayrate in exchange for a slice of equity (low single digit percentages)

2) You are an employee and take a paycut to participate in their vesting schedule with CAP table (the same as 1) really)

3) You are a cofounder and get a solid stake in the company but instead of providing capital as a technical person you are more likely to build an MVP for not much money in exchange for solid double digit percantages or equals pequals in the company.

Whereas their model is completely different and more comparable to real estate agents or similar.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#24
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when lead-gen lives inside the sales organization, the salespeople who generate leads and the salespeople who close deals are generally not the same people. It's a different skillset to hammer the phones and repeat scripts than to gauge technical fit and negotiate. The reason to have lead-gen live in marketing is because modern lead-gen is often based on marketing initiatives. For example, a good source of leads…

What yannu said. Doesn't really matter whether marketing lives inside the sales org or not. It can work either way. (And your new VP of Sales will always tell you that marketing should report to her.) What matters is that you a) have enough and the right kind of marketing in place to fill the top of your sales funnel, and b) instrument and evaluate marketing performance at least as quantitatively and aggressively as…

What is interesting is the conflict of interest that can lead to. A sales leader who is responsible for both sales and marketing might have a vested interest in tossing marketing under the bus if they can't get traction or close.

It also makes it hard to get projects off the ground that can have a long-term payoff since Sales tends to be very focused on the short-term tangibles, even if the former are critical to healthy growth in the big picture (think SEO, branding, laying the infrastructure for automation, etc.).

Having marketing as a distinct group can help make sure there is a healthy conversation between the various priorities, and also make sure there's a voice that is empowered to say "look, we mutually agreed on these lead scoring criteria, and fact of the matter is you're not following up on all leads within 24hrs, that's not marketing's fault."

I actually had that conversation once before when the sales lead also owned marketing. This was also an individual who ignored my need to have all sales conversations logged and categorized correctly in our CRM, so there were other issues.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#25
post #7

Great article. I don't totally grok #2 about not turning over existing leads/deals to sales. That seems like a decent place to get started with minimal downside (as long as person has even the slightest discretion on shedding suboptimal situations). I also get concerned when sales learns that it can ask product for anything and get it. My experience is it's generally better to "sell what's on the lot". This avoids th…

Yes in general I thought this was a good article. But I also found some of it odd. In general sales people hate coming in with a clean slate. They want to pick up some existing customers and existing deal flow so they can learn quickly how the product is actually used (to help with positioning it accurately) and what the objections and issues are in the sales cycle. Perhaps the author was more implying "don't stick t…

I think you're absolutely right about not wanting to bog down your salespeople with old relationships. Here's why:

It seems to me that a lot of companies who are at the point where they'd hire a full-time sales staff struggle with their early clients and not-quite-clients. In hiring salespeople, companies are defining themselves as established players with an established product to sell, whereas the relationships with early customers centered much more around being the new guys on whom the buying company is taking a risk and often getting a say in feature development and a discount compared to the competition.

Re-framing those early relationships, especially "with middle managers from dinosaur companies," is a very long and frustrating process for all the parties involved.

I could absolutely see why you'd want to avoid your news sales staff getting sucked into those relationships and instead do what they're fantastic at: parachuting in, developing new relationships quickly, and pivoting those to closed deals.

(Background/assumptions: I do bizdev-ish things for a large tech company. From the tone of the article, I'm assuming that we're talking about B2B businesses with products priced such that the relationship with individual clients takes time to develop.)

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on your biz model and there are many variations. At my company we do 1.5% of the monthly revenue of each client the sales person has "closed." Typical monthly value of a client is around $20k and we have no cap on commissions. Reps are also the first line of defense when it comes to customer service for their clients. This works great for us because the reps who provide the best customer service typ…

Thanks. Just for your example, do they only get their commission after the client has paid? Just general curiosity as I am technical and I have no idea how their models work. The three things that I am familiar with are: 1) I give you a small discount of my dayrate in exchange for a slice of equity (low single digit percentages) 2) You are an employee and take a paycut to participate in their vesting schedule with CA…

Generally the principle behind designing sales compensation works along these lines

(i) First figure out a notional target amount of revenue you would expect a salesperson doing reasonably well to generate over a time period. [1] (ii) Then offer sales role(s) with a base salary and a higher[2] OTE (on target earnings) figure reflecting their expected earnings (including salary) if they hit this notional target. This is what the compensation will be advertised as, and how it'll be benchmarked against rival company salaries (iii) In the simplest case, the salesperson gets paid the base salary plus (OTE - SALARY)/TARGET per unit of revenue they book during the course of a reporting period[3]... As they probably over or undershoot their target by quite a bit, chances are they earn more or less than the magical OTE Common variations on the simple case include increasing the commission percentage for sales over the target (or various other thresholds) to weight incentives in favour of the lowest performer, setting a base threshold so the salesperson doesn't earn any commission at all until they've reached this minimum tolerable level of performance, and offering fixed cash bonuses for various other achievements. Salespeople looking after a mixture of new and existing accounts might find their OTE composed of separate targets for new and retained business with different percentages, or they might have a single target with new sales required to cancel out the losses.

Either way, the compensation is usually calculated based on when the revenue gets booked and paid at the end of the quarter, month or week. So salespeople might get paid before client pays, but they might get paid three months after if they're on a quarterly commission scheme.

[1]Of course definitions of reasonable vary, and any kind of targeting might be more alchemy than science, especially in a startup. [2]Maybe a mere 15% above the base salary (if the sales role is mostly admin and the salesperson isn't expected to boost the figure through excellent work) or it might be more than triple the base salary (typically promoting above-market achievable earnings as an upside for accepting below-market base salary, much like the high-equity offers for developers) [3] the reporting periods is probably a quarter or a month, but possibly weeks for very transactional sales or years for the 4-deals-a-year enterprise roles).

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#28
So what I don't really understand is what exactly the "right" sales people are doing that the others aren't. I totally understand that there is distribution of competence for anything - but what is the real difference?

I can only come up with a few things I can figure out on my own so maybe someone can tell me if I am missing one:

1. Understand the customer better through research/interaction and pitch a cleaner "value"

2. Drive the CTO/CEO to refine the product to match customer need better

3. Find the right person in the organization

4. Have personal contacts prior to joining the organization that convert better

5. Use "psychology" or whatever to gently coerce a sale

*6. Manage other sales people well

What am I missing?

It seems like the better a product is the less variability in competence would matter - so in that sense the difference between ok and awesome is just the speed at which they can convert.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#29
post #9

Interesting to see the justification for screwing engineers on the pay. EDIT: To clarify--the idea of commission is effectively an equity stake in either the revenue or profit (depending on the setup, right)? So, the sales folks see an immediate return on their work. The engineers, while salaried, have no such visceral link to the performance of the product...just some trivial paper and the thin sliver of hope they w…

Downvote on the first sentence which is incendiary and probably wrong. And even with the edit, you still don't really get that many businesses live and die by sales. Product is relatively easy to build.

"probably wrong" if you are only looking at engineer salaries at the coasts or at BigCo.

I very much get that businesses live and die by sales--anybody who's been in a startup (much less founded one) does.

But I also get that part of the reason the product sells is because the people working on it are personally invested in the outcome. The engineer trades a somewhat higher salary and lower ceiling for the ability to directly impact how the market and product interact.

It's precisely because sales is so important that I am curious if engineers wouldn't be better served (as well as their companies!) were they treated the same as sales folks.

The fact is that engineers produce value but don't capture it nearly as well, and I cannot help but wonder what would happen if they worked on commission or royalty.

Re: A Technical Founder’s Notes on Sales Team Management

#30
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What yannu said. Doesn't really matter whether marketing lives inside the sales org or not. It can work either way. (And your new VP of Sales will always tell you that marketing should report to her.) What matters is that you a) have enough and the right kind of marketing in place to fill the top of your sales funnel, and b) instrument and evaluate marketing performance at least as quantitatively and aggressively as…

What is interesting is the conflict of interest that can lead to. A sales leader who is responsible for both sales and marketing might have a vested interest in tossing marketing under the bus if they can't get traction or close. It also makes it hard to get projects off the ground that can have a long-term payoff since Sales tends to be very focused on the short-term tangibles, even if the former are critical to hea…

What happens when you do it the other way around: having salespeople work for your marketing team, essentially being their "finishers"? It seems like you'd get not-necessarily-good-or-bad effects like marketing feeling empowered to offer discounts and bundles through "their" sales force.
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