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We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

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351–360 of 405 posts

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#351
post #207
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting meta and no longer directly responsive to the article, which I don't wholly disagree with. A tractor and a book are different situations. Books are hard to copy, while files are easy to copy. Writers have to get paid, and people are cheap and don't want to pay them... even while they will pay the same for a fancy cup of coffee. Hence a scramble for some way to set up a toll booth that is hard to circu…

> the creators of things starve The creators of things can do whatever they want in Stallmans world. They just cannot use the state as a weapon against the sharing of information they created, or more appropriately, hold a state issued right to control. A tool to deny the propagation of knowledge in all its forms which destroys culture (how much media from the 20th century is lost forever again?) and cripples social…

The creators of things can do whatever they want in Stallmans world.

That's not true at all. Stallman is against DRM in general, not state-backed DRM specifically.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#352
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here isnt that we're leasing things (we have leases for cars, houses, and many other physical goods). The problem is that the manufacturers mix leasing and owning. I.e. you own the device, but lease the software. I think that everyone would be radically happier if you either leased everything or owned everything. This is partly because when we buy something at a store, we expect to own it, not own pa…

I don't think it's that either. I think it's that laws exist to protect "intellectual property," which leads to a lot of bizarre consequences that don't occur with laws protecting traditional physical property. A lease on a physical good like a car is not particularly strange. It's just a contract that allows the lessee to use a scarce physical item that belongs to the lessor under certain terms. If we had that kind…

> If we had that kind of lease on software, but without IP laws, there still wouldn't be any strange legal consequences. The lessee gets the software, and perhaps the terms say that the lessee cannot copy or modify the software. The difference is that if the lessee does distribute a copy of the software, the lessor cannot go after third parties who download those copies, because they haven't signed any sort of lease or contract. The lessor can go after the lessee, of course, but that's it.

The difficulty I see with the current and future legal landscape is that there's no clear distinction between right-to-modify and right-to-distribute.

It might be argued that this has been a willful conflation by IP owners in an attempt to best sell their agenda. (Right-to-modify-something-owned being substantially more in line with pre-digital norms)

My understanding was that the point of the DCMA's reasonable clauses was to clarify that yes, if you own something, you also own the right to modify it. Including the right to circumvent any artificial technical limits placed on your ability to modify. The tension has always been that modifiable devices can also strip technical protections from IP to enable distribution.

To me, I can't see how we end up with any alternative to the following two options (which I think the Stallman-position cardboard cutout would argue as well):

[World A] Users do not have a right to distribute IP. To ensure this, IP encrypted. Breaking IP encryption is illegal. To ensure breaking IP encryption is also impossible, modifying at least some portion of software/firmware/hardware in consumer devices is also illegal. To ensure modification is also impossible, technical measures are employed (aka "Nightmare TPM").

[World B] The legality of distributing IP is irrelevant. The legality of breaking IP encryption is irrelevant. Breaking IP encryption is feasible, because modifying the software/firmware/hardware of consumer devices is feasible.

The road to cyberpunk ethos was always that [World A] would be enacted legally (because money), while [World B] would be de facto reality (because consumers get creeped out by TPM and there are more hardware companies interested in selling units than vertically integrated IP stakeholders^).

^Bonus points for those who remember when Apple was the former rather than the latter

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#353
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look at the patron model, or commission based production, used for centuries." Here's a better idea: look at the actual work produced under this model. With a few notable exceptions, it's an endless parade of flattering portraits of rich people, glorified depictions the wars they won, politically slanted historic fictions used to justify their authority, and scenes from the religious stories they used to instill ter…

>Here's a better idea: look at the actual work produced under this model. With a few notable exceptions, it's an endless parade of flattering portraits of rich people, glorified depictions the wars they won, politically slanted historic fictions used to justify their authority, and scenes from the religious stories they used to instill terror and obedience in the people they dominated ruthlessly.... The historical ar…

"I'd wager that the vast majority of music, art, and technological process and creation for our species has not been for pay in service of the groups you described."

You'd win, but not for the reasons you imagine. You'd win because the vast majority of everything created by humans has been produced in the last century - and most of that has happened in countries with relatively strong democratic governance.

"To think that art has historically been created solely for the rich is rather absurd. It simply isn't true."

You're asserting this without any evidence, and doing do in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

"From the first known cave paintings, to the blues, to free software..."

Whoa, hold up, there's a HUGE gap between your first and second examples, and specifically, a gap where the evidence you're unable to cite should be.

Given the millennia-spanning history of civilization, expression that is legally protected from government interference is a very recent development, and even now, it's not one that's enjoyed worldwide. From ancient Sumer forward, you'll find that pretty much everything of note was created and controlled by the elite. And if not directly controlled, then certainly permitted only with their approval. Between the guilds that dominated production and the religious authorities who sanctioned their output, the power of art has - until very recently - been kept on a very short leash.

To a degree, I see how this validates your point in that it speaks to a large (and largely suppressed) desire to produce work that goes beyond the range of official sanction. And that's true of both work that gets supported in return for toeing a party line, and of work that gets banned for crossing it. But the desire to produce work is not the same as producing actual work. More powerful forms of creativity that went beyond folk art (largely restricted to song and dance) require advanced study and formal training, which absolutely and invariably took place under the watchful eye of the ruling class. Near-exclusive reliance on patronage not only provided a means for rewarding the useful and the loyal, it also provided a reliable means for starving the disloyal and disruptive. And I wasn't being flip by associating patronage with systems like the index of banned books and the divine right of kings. You can dismiss the broader context in which patronage thrived if you like, but that's no way to gain a comprehensive and accurate view of the subject.

Again, IP laws have never been perfect. But to the extent that they encapsulate the promise and power of democracy, they are tremendously instrumental in the explosion of human creativity that democratically ruled societies have been responsible for. Sure, there's always been some level of creativity present in human societies. But not until creative expression gained a measure of legal and economic independence, and people gained a strong measure of control over their governments, did the creative potential of humanity really lift off.

While IP laws are far from the only factor in this explosion, they're within the set of indispensable conditions that made the explosion possible in the first place. In the absence of a social contract that guarantees the physical well-being of every individual, regardless of the work they do (or don't) perform, IP laws provide an essential protection for the vast stores of materials and labor that go into the production of the most compelling works of art. Absent this protection (and general social support) the ability to control and advance the arts returns to the elite and their dependents. Invariably, this concentration of cultural power gets used to undermine the democratic institutions that exist to limit the concentration of political power in the hands of an otherwise unaccountable elite.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#354
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting meta and no longer directly responsive to the article, which I don't wholly disagree with. A tractor and a book are different situations. Books are hard to copy, while files are easy to copy. Writers have to get paid, and people are cheap and don't want to pay them... even while they will pay the same for a fancy cup of coffee. Hence a scramble for some way to set up a toll booth that is hard to circu…

Many people who try to make a living making music or writing are unable to do so, even if the music or the writing is pretty good, and that's due to obscurity, not piracy. Historically, even fewer people were able to. Pages and even chapters of books have been copied by photocopiers (found in many libraries!) for decades. The only limit to the copying was how many quarters you had. You need to give up the idea that p…

The obvious answer here that I'm shocked to not see, is basic income.

As automation and artificial intelligence become more prevalent, why would we use humans to fill 'real jobs'?

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you want to buy it, go see someone else." ... It's a good question, but an important consideration is whether your customer has the option of saying no. For example, if you are a small farmer, you can't really negotiate with tractor manufacturers because you lack t…

Do we really want to force companies to give the option, rather than the market? I'm not 100% Ayn Rand, but my tendency is to let consumers drive what they want to pay for. If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it. This isn't to say that market failures don't exist - they do. I'm just skeptical when people with agendas point them out without proof.

> If there is profit in giving people what they ask for, someone will generally do it.

Ideally, yes, but: 1) Much that is valuable to poeple or to society does not maximize profit and is not provided by the marketplace [1] 2) the market isn't really free; for example, companies use their power (politically and in the market) and collude (explicitly and implicitly) to protect their profits and marketshare, and 3) consumers can't be educated about everything they buy; there simply isn't enough time or available resources; therefore vendors, staffed with industry experts, can easily take advantage of them.

> Do we really want to force companies to give the option ...

I don't mean to play down this concern, which is a serious one for me too.

[1] As examples: The technology you are using to read this posting, from protocols to your possibly FOSS browser; almost all knowledge generated at academic institutions, from the theory of relativity to vaccinations to knowledge of society; the security provided by soldiers; our political system, etc.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#356
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people who try to make a living making music or writing are unable to do so, even if the music or the writing is pretty good, and that's due to obscurity, not piracy. Historically, even fewer people were able to. Pages and even chapters of books have been copied by photocopiers (found in many libraries!) for decades. The only limit to the copying was how many quarters you had. You need to give up the idea that p…

"Create less and have a real job." Wow. I see lots of this kind of sentiment when I bring this up, but yours deserves credit for being exceptionally honest.

I take issue with this "real job" thing.

A "real job" is something you do to get reliable income. More often than not, it implies working for someone else. "Real job" don't have to be interesting, fulfilling, or even productive. If yours is, great, but that is not their main function. Their main function is to get you to pay the bills.

Hence my issue with the qualifier: "real". "Real" implies something inherently good, or at least better than the alternative. It also implies the alternative isn't "real", meaning it has less or no value. Add enough confusion, and you get a moral imperative to work your ass off for a boss that doesn't care about you, instead of creating pieces of art.

This way of thinking would lead to a bleak world. We should say "real job" less often —if at all.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#357
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a futuristic utopian human society. Are the people writing poetry, playing instruments and painting murals or are they assembling widgets in a factory? Humans are really good at creating things, that's what I think we are here to do, not "work".

This is sort of an easy thing for djb to say, but the truth is that most people are not good at creating things. Most people are barely useful for "work". The average keeps getting higher, but half the population is still and will always be below-average. Maybe in a future utopian society everyone is somehow above average, or there are radically fewer humans that just are really smart, but right now most of the peopl…

The average keeps getting higher and the top-tier improves because of non-incremental creative leaps, achieved by statistical outliers in the new-blood people who create "more content". Large sample sizes are needed to yield the good stuff.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#358
post #352
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's that either. I think it's that laws exist to protect "intellectual property," which leads to a lot of bizarre consequences that don't occur with laws protecting traditional physical property. A lease on a physical good like a car is not particularly strange. It's just a contract that allows the lessee to use a scarce physical item that belongs to the lessor under certain terms. If we had that kind…

> If we had that kind of lease on software, but without IP laws, there still wouldn't be any strange legal consequences. The lessee gets the software, and perhaps the terms say that the lessee cannot copy or modify the software. The difference is that if the lessee does distribute a copy of the software, the lessor cannot go after third parties who download those copies, because they haven't signed any sort of lease…

> The difficulty I see with the current and future legal landscape is that there's no clear distinction between right-to-modify and right-to-distribute.

In the context of entering a contract, I don't see either as "rights." If you sign a contract saying that you will pay a certain amount to use a tractor without modifying its internals or distributing copies of its source code, I am fine with a legal system enforcing that contract.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#359
post #136
post #48

Richard Stallman spent the last 30 years telling us this would happen. As soon as books become computer files, you don't buy them anymore, you lease usage rights. As soon as tractors contain computer code, you don't own them anymore, you are granted a license to use them. When will it stop? More and more everyday objects are incorporating software and firmware in many different forms. I remember reading Stallman's sh…

This is getting meta and no longer directly responsive to the article, which I don't wholly disagree with. A tractor and a book are different situations. Books are hard to copy, while files are easy to copy. Writers have to get paid, and people are cheap and don't want to pay them... even while they will pay the same for a fancy cup of coffee. Hence a scramble for some way to set up a toll booth that is hard to circu…

> Books are hard to copy

Err, no, it only takes half an hour at most and a Xerox machine. It's much cheaper than buying it too. We used to do it all the time when I was in college, which helped a lot given that sometimes we needed books that were out of print.

And btw, the best thing about a printed book is that it's forever yours and you can rent it, burn it or copy it with no technical restrictions ;-)

> Writers have to get paid, and people are cheap and don't want to pay them

Welcome to the world of capitalism; supply and demand is a bitch, isn't it?

My problem with such an argument is that it tries to take a moral stand, whereas there's no morality in it, because being paid for shit is not a fundamental right. Plus in a world in which copyright terms keep getting extended such that Disney will never lose their rights for Mickey Mouse, some people find it hard to give a shit about copyrights.

But the freaking elephant in the room is that DRM does not protect the interests of "creators" and it does not stop people from pirating content. DRM only achieves two things - (1) lock-in for the company owning the platform (e.g. Amazon) and (2) milking loyal customers.

As an example, I'm resetting my phone like once every two months or so and reinstalling everything ... the Kindle app is now telling me that my books were downloaded on too many devices and so I can't download them. I can't "unregister" devices either, because this is simply a software bug. I then searched those books on torrent sites, found them, downloaded them and I'll never buy books from Amazon again.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#360
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here isnt that we're leasing things (we have leases for cars, houses, and many other physical goods). The problem is that the manufacturers mix leasing and owning. I.e. you own the device, but lease the software. I think that everyone would be radically happier if you either leased everything or owned everything. This is partly because when we buy something at a store, we expect to own it, not own pa…

The confusion goes further. When you "buy" a kindle book, are you buying it or leasing it? It's still restricted, you can only put it where amazon says you can put it, so in my view that's leasing. Yet the button on the site says "Buy", and there's no other component involved. At the very least the labeling laws should require clearly distinguishing between purchase and lease. If there's a part of the product that yo…

It's rabbithole. Owning a VHS tape recorder forbids you to use Betamax. Even when things become a standard you're still under the ecosystem diktat. Unless someone broaden the GNU manifesto and distribution to the physical world, where you could share means to create factories to produce anything you need on your own (pushing the debate onto matter, land and energy).
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