1.5 Million Missing Black Men • Hacker News Board

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#351

Post by foldr » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 6:48 PM UTC

juliangregorian wrote: post #348

foldr wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've looked very carefully at the graphic in the second article. You might want to compare the bar chart on the right against a list of countries in the Middle East. The Middle Eastern countries listed are: Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Yemen Of those, only Jordan and Saudi Arabia are contributing large numbers of fighters. On the whole, the Middle Eastern c…

Way to put words in my mouth. "Brown people" all over the world thank you for your brave service. I know what the Middle East is, jackass. Nowhere did I say that other parts of the world were not contributing large numbers of fighters. That's irrelevant to my original point. Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too. Like, did you think you would just sneak that by somehow? The truth is, most Middle Eastern countri…

> Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too

I didn't mention them because they're not listed on the bar chart. But including them would skew the analysis for obvious reasons.

Again, your source doesn't show that the Middle East is producing more Islamic extremists on the whole than many other regions of the world. If you agree with that, then we agree. Of course, pretty much every country in the Middle East is producing a non-zero number of Islamic extremists -- as is pretty much every country in the West. If that is your only point, why draw attention to the Middle East specifically?

>Middle Eastern expats (or their children), many of whom hold dual citizenship.

You'll need another source on this. It might be true, but it's important to bear in mind that (i) many Muslims are not from the Middle East and (ii) Islamic extremism is not limited to the Middle East. So I am not sure that e.g. the majority of homegrown Islamic extremists in the UK have Middle Eastern backgrounds. It's possible, but I'd like to see some evidence.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#352

Post by juliangregorian » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #351

juliangregorian wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to put words in my mouth. "Brown people" all over the world thank you for your brave service. I know what the Middle East is, jackass. Nowhere did I say that other parts of the world were not contributing large numbers of fighters. That's irrelevant to my original point. Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too. Like, did you think you would just sneak that by somehow? The truth is, most Middle Eastern countri…

> Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too I didn't mention them because they're not listed on the bar chart. But including them would skew the analysis for obvious reasons. Again, your source doesn't show that the Middle East is producing more Islamic extremists on the whole than many other regions of the world. If you agree with that, then we agree. Of course, pretty much every country in the Middle East is prod…

Now you're changing your argument. I realize yesterday was a long time ago, but you were the one arguing that extremism was limited to small pockets of the Middle East. I didn't draw attention to M.E. specifically, you did.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#353

Post by juliangregorian » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 6:58 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #351

juliangregorian wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to put words in my mouth. "Brown people" all over the world thank you for your brave service. I know what the Middle East is, jackass. Nowhere did I say that other parts of the world were not contributing large numbers of fighters. That's irrelevant to my original point. Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too. Like, did you think you would just sneak that by somehow? The truth is, most Middle Eastern countri…

> Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too I didn't mention them because they're not listed on the bar chart. But including them would skew the analysis for obvious reasons. Again, your source doesn't show that the Middle East is producing more Islamic extremists on the whole than many other regions of the world. If you agree with that, then we agree. Of course, pretty much every country in the Middle East is prod…

Nice ninja edit. Why don't you provide some sources for once. I'm getting sick of your poor argumentation and I'm not your research assistant.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#354

Post by foldr » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #351

juliangregorian wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to put words in my mouth. "Brown people" all over the world thank you for your brave service. I know what the Middle East is, jackass. Nowhere did I say that other parts of the world were not contributing large numbers of fighters. That's irrelevant to my original point. Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too. Like, did you think you would just sneak that by somehow? The truth is, most Middle Eastern countri…

> Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too I didn't mention them because they're not listed on the bar chart. But including them would skew the analysis for obvious reasons. Again, your source doesn't show that the Middle East is producing more Islamic extremists on the whole than many other regions of the world. If you agree with that, then we agree. Of course, pretty much every country in the Middle East is prod…

Can't reply to juliangregorian's latest comments, so I'll reply here.

>I didn't draw attention to M.E. specifically, you did.

You’re missing the context of the thread. I was replying to someone who singled out the Middle East. From what you say, it seems that you’re not attempting to defend what the OP said, you’re just pointing out that most Middle Eastern countries are producing some number of Islamic extremists. Well, ok, no disagreement there. However, on the evidence we’ve seen so far, it seems that Middle Eastern countries don’t produce an unusually high number compared to many other regions of the world. For that reason, I object to the OP’s singling out of the Middle East as a source of Islamic extremists. It would be better to single out the countries responsible.

I’m still a little skeptical of your claim that most homegrown terrorists in Western countries have Middle Eastern backgrounds. This certainly isn’t true in many cases. For example, the 7 July bombers had Pakistani backgrounds. Do you have a source on this or is it just a hunch?

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#355

Post by chrischen » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #214

chrischen wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Asian culture Asian woman always have a strong preference for other Asians (this is of course generalizing across the different Asian cultures), especially from the same Asian race. But there's a strong fetishizing of Asian women by certain non-Asian men so there's a disproportionate amount of Asian-women-chasing by white men that gets misconstrued as preference by Asian women. If everyone preferred blue M&Ms, you…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_Uni... " Asian Americans of both genders who are U.S.-raised are much more likely to be married to Whites than their non-U.S.-raised counterparts. " I found a summary of the study: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/20... " Two wrinkles on this: We found no evidence of the stereotype of a white male preference for East Asian women. Howeve…

"Asian Americans of both genders who are U.S.-raised are much more likely to be married to Whites than their non-U.S.-raised counterparts." This statement is not actually related to the point I'm making. Of course it will be true (for so many reasons) since people raised in the US are exposed to, and interact with, non-Asians.

There's no general white male preference. I didn't say that. I'm saying there's a small niche of white males who have fetishes, and it exists where there is no nice of Asian men who prefer white girls, or Asian women who prefer white men. I've seen white males go only for Asian women because of this. And because societal norms across cultures is for the men to chase woman, you'll get some small group of white men who will heavily pursue Asian woman.

Also, from the same article: "Social enterprise research by the Columbia Business School (2005–2007) concluded that while East Asian women statistically prefer East Asian men for marriage, they show no discrimination against White men, causing Asian women/White men pairings to consistently become the prevalent form of interracial dating & marriage in the United States.[6]"

Summary: Asian women prefer Asian men, but do not discriminate White men, so statistically (especially if there is a subset of Asian-fetishizing white men) you'll see more interracial pairings. If one is a latent racist, one might attribute such pairings to an intrinsic desirability for one's race.. OR, one would realize that all things have an objective cause besides the fact that one's own race is always better.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#356

Post by burkaman » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

innguest wrote: post #330

burkaman wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that you need to acknowledge the concept of race. Say you're facing a 10% unemployment rate in some city. If you treat everyone as an equal individual, the solution will be some combination of economic changes, lowering taxes, increasing subsidies, whatever. Now imagine 90% of the unemployed are black, in a city where blacks are the minority. Clearly there is more than an economic problem here. Promoting indiv…

You seem to only be able to think from the perspective of central planning. I invite you to stop invoking this earthly "god" and give people a chance. Can you give me an example of how a town where 90% of the unemployed are black could possibly come into being in the free market where voluntary trade and contracts are enforced by the governments courts (and there are no group-membership based laws)? I'll give you the…

It's not all of a sudden. And I'm not talking about super blatant racism where every business owner is like "I don't like those black folks so I just won't hire them".

It's not all of a sudden because in the US, we had slavery and then Jim Crow. There was never a time where everyone lived equally, and then all of a sudden all the black people were unemployed. They've always been disproportionately poor, uneducated, unemployed, and that's a really tough cycle to get out of.

And it's not blatant racism. A black guy with a Harvard MBA doesn't have much of a problem getting a job in this town. But there's still plenty of subtle, unconscious racism. A black guy is more likely to be rejected for any given job than a white guy with a comparable resume. There's plenty of studies on this issue, here's the first one I found: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=422902

The employer here doesn't hate black people, they just decided to hire the white candidate for a reason they probably wouldn't be able to put their finger on.

These black people don't have any business connections, so it's a lot harder to get internships and jobs. Half the adults they know when they're in college are unemployed or in jail. This is more of a poverty problem than a race problem, but race still plays into it. You can't get a job in your dad's office like your white friends did, because your parents were constantly passed over for jobs like that.

These black people have a much harder time starting their own business. Their family doesn't have any money, and they seem to have more trouble getting a loan than white people do.

I want to reiterate that this is not all of a sudden. There has never been a time in the US where all races lived in equality and harmony. If 90% of the unemployed are black, it's probably always been that way, right up until none of them were unemployed because they were all slaves.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#357

Post by chrischen » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #165

chrischen wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Asian culture Asian woman always have a strong preference for other Asians (this is of course generalizing across the different Asian cultures), especially from the same Asian race. But there's a strong fetishizing of Asian women by certain non-Asian men so there's a disproportionate amount of Asian-women-chasing by white men that gets misconstrued as preference by Asian women. If everyone preferred blue M&Ms, you…

>But there's a strong fetishizing of Asian women by certain non-Asian men so there's a disproportionate amount of Asian-women-chasing by white men that gets misconstrued as preference by Asian women. It takes two to tango.

Asian woman, especially in the US, would not be strongly against relationships with non-Asian men. Plus the societal norm is for the guy to initiate and pursue. So if you have a small subset of white men who have a fetish for Asian women, you'll naturally get more of those pairings simply because Asian men dont have as much of a fetish for other races as white men do.

If you do the math, you'll also see this. If Asian women had equal preference for white or asian men, you'd see a fairly equal distribution of Asian/White pairings (with that of Asian/Asian). If you take a look outside you'll see there are still vastly greater amount of Asian-Asian pairs than Asian-Nonasian. The Asian-men preference will be greatly less pronounced for Asian American women, but it's extremely strong for Asian born women.

If you don't agree with looking, or you lack a sufficiently large sample size of Asian friends to gather info from, see this quote from Wikipedia:

"Social enterprise research by the Columbia Business School (2005–2007) concluded that while East Asian women statistically prefer East Asian men for marriage, they show no discrimination against White men, causing Asian women/White men pairings to consistently become the prevalent form of interracial dating & marriage in the United States.[6]"

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#358

Post by chrischen » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

brc wrote: post #248

chrischen wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Asian culture Asian woman always have a strong preference for other Asians (this is of course generalizing across the different Asian cultures), especially from the same Asian race. But there's a strong fetishizing of Asian women by certain non-Asian men so there's a disproportionate amount of Asian-women-chasing by white men that gets misconstrued as preference by Asian women. If everyone preferred blue M&Ms, you…

I'm guessing this comment is based on personal experience, perhaps difficulty in success with some Asian women. I once dated a very attractive Asian woman. What was surprising to me was that lots of Asian guys who would have normally passed me on the street without comment were all of a sudden making snide remarks. It seemed to me that these guys felt like I was stealing one of 'their girls' or something. It's just a…

Im going to have to call you out here. I think you are clearly trying to irk me. But I didn't suggest that white men dating Asian girls is a bad thing, or any racist anti interracial attitude. So I'm not sure what the point of your comment was. It's kind of offensive and latently racist to suggest that I must be Asian and I must be bitter because you took one of "my girls."

Why not just respond to the point I made attempting to explain the prevalence white mail Asian female pairings.

How am I supposed to make my point (assuming I'm right about this) when I've got people like you attacking me with off-topic slightly racist remarks?

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#359

Post by haberman » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:36 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #292

haberman wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else. Here's the thing: even if I never convince you of that, all you have to be convinced of is these things are a problem and should be fixed. Hopefully you believe that obvious conflicts of interest should not exist? Hopefully you believe that cops should not shoot unarmed people in the back while they are running…

Hold on a sec. There are 2 separate issues we have: 1. I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you. 2. At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).

> I completely agree that the issues you raised ARE a problem and should be fixed. 100% with you.

Great! Common ground.

> At the same time I don't think they are the culprit that's responsible for large black crime rate (with attendant thousands dead and 1m+ in prison).

As I mentioned in my first message, I don't think there is a single "the culprit," I think it is a large and complicated problem with many interrelated causes.

But let's even suppose you're 100% right and the things I mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the black crime rate. One thing that's pretty much irrefutable is that the vast majority of black America (and many white Americans, such as myself) believe they are a factor. This means that taking active steps towards solving them (which we already agreed should happen) will help build trust between groups, making it much easier to work together towards solutions.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#360

Post by juliangregorian » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #354

foldr wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Way to massively ignore Iraq and Syria, too I didn't mention them because they're not listed on the bar chart. But including them would skew the analysis for obvious reasons. Again, your source doesn't show that the Middle East is producing more Islamic extremists on the whole than many other regions of the world. If you agree with that, then we agree. Of course, pretty much every country in the Middle East is prod…

Can't reply to juliangregorian's latest comments, so I'll reply here. >I didn't draw attention to M.E. specifically, you did. You’re missing the context of the thread. I was replying to someone who singled out the Middle East. From what you say, it seems that you’re not attempting to defend what the OP said, you’re just pointing out that most Middle Eastern countries are producing some number of Islamic extremists. W…

Yes, actually it's articles like this one: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/belgium-muslim-you...