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We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

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Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've recently become interested in this, since I bought a 2015 vehicle with a computer in the console. Do you have any advice/resources for a budding car hacker?

The best way to start is to not buy a vehicle with a hundred proprietary computers in it.

How do you search for and verify one of those vehicles without a computer?

Also, I haven't bought a new car in many years. Is there something like a EULA buried in the small print? And I don't imagine buyers on the secondary market sign anything. Or will it become illegal to sell used cars because the software license doesn't allow for transfer?

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#252
post #222
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Create less and have a real job." Wow. I see lots of this kind of sentiment when I bring this up, but yours deserves credit for being exceptionally honest.

The world probably needs less content creation. We're long past the point where there are too many useful books to read in one lifetime. Even in narrow fields, we're producing comedy television, historical fiction novels, or cat pictures faster than one person could consume them all. You could spend a lifetime just researching what's worth consuming. With this kind of overproduction, it's no surprise creators can't m…

That is a ridiculous argument. The more content we produce, the more quality and diversity you can get in the corpus that you will read; the more choices that you can make. There might be infinite insight in the contemplation of cat pictures. :)

Or from another angle: why don't we destroy half of the content of the world? Surely we have enough with the remainings. If we were to find tomorrow another intelligent species, would you be interested in their culture? Or won't you have time to read it?

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is well known, that monopolies are killing a free market. In ecology, there's a concept call Ecological Succession. Likewise, in Capitalism, the free market is a stage in a succession toward monopoly. Capital tends to pool, leading to monopolies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_succession

Applying concepts from one scientific discipline to other disciplines does seldom fit. I think it is more a sign of pseudo-scientific trickery to back the own thinking, that is most often used in unsound economical theories. It is a fact, that while monopolies are good for the monopolists, it is bad for societies at large. And no "ecological" concepts can convince me from the opposite. One example: While bigger banks…

> Applying concepts from one scientific discipline to other disciplines does seldom fit.

I find analogies useful. I also find the utility of Science to be valid but limited at times, particularly in complex systems that evolve.

> I think it is more a sign of pseudo-scientific trickery to back the own thinking, that is most often used in unsound economical theories.

You are assuming that my motivations are different from what they actually are, but yes, I agree it does happen... I'm also not trying to make a "sound economic theory". Observations & analogies are still valid & useful, though. YMMV.

> It is a fact, that while monopolies are good for the monopolists, it is bad for societies at large. And no "ecological" concepts can convince me from the opposite.

I'm making an observation that the "free market" is an unstable system. It probably only exists in theory. IMO, the difference between the theory & reality limits the utility of Capitalism, or any imposed economic model for that matter.

> With your "ecological" theory, someone also could argue, that dinosaurs are better than mammals.

It's hard to find "better" in all circumstances. It usually depends on context. i.e. Dinosaurs were pretty well adapted for their environment & lasted millions of years (much longer than humans). Too bad they didn't consider that asteroid...

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#254
post #136
post #48

Richard Stallman spent the last 30 years telling us this would happen. As soon as books become computer files, you don't buy them anymore, you lease usage rights. As soon as tractors contain computer code, you don't own them anymore, you are granted a license to use them. When will it stop? More and more everyday objects are incorporating software and firmware in many different forms. I remember reading Stallman's sh…

This is getting meta and no longer directly responsive to the article, which I don't wholly disagree with. A tractor and a book are different situations. Books are hard to copy, while files are easy to copy. Writers have to get paid, and people are cheap and don't want to pay them... even while they will pay the same for a fancy cup of coffee. Hence a scramble for some way to set up a toll booth that is hard to circu…

>In his world, the creators of things starve.

How so? The entirety of human history has shown us that we create no matter what. Art, music, tools, stories, technology, etc. Creators have been making (and eating) for eons, well before modern IP laws. Look at the patron model, or commission based production, used for centuries. Or look at creation during leisure time for leisure (and its close modern cousin, large portions of the App Store).

The absence of strong, modern IP laws has never meant (and never will) "creators of things starve". It may mean varying levels of overall creation, but it gets hard to quantify what that would mean, especially when many components of our current strong IP laws work against and damage creation of IP.

>Stallman can ignore this side of the equation because he is a tenured academic.

You kind of lost me with this attack on him. This is just a lazy cop-out that gets you out of considering the counterargument on its points and merits. You're not debating his argument, you're attacking his character. Incidentally though, he is getting paid, and he is using the ancient patron model which is entirely consistent with his views.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#255
post #48

Richard Stallman spent the last 30 years telling us this would happen. As soon as books become computer files, you don't buy them anymore, you lease usage rights. As soon as tractors contain computer code, you don't own them anymore, you are granted a license to use them. When will it stop? More and more everyday objects are incorporating software and firmware in many different forms. I remember reading Stallman's sh…

The real problem here isnt that we're leasing things (we have leases for cars, houses, and many other physical goods). The problem is that the manufacturers mix leasing and owning. I.e. you own the device, but lease the software. I think that everyone would be radically happier if you either leased everything or owned everything. This is partly because when we buy something at a store, we expect to own it, not own pa…

I feel like the term "lease" isn't appropriate unless there is a viable way and underlying plan to eventually return it. When I lease I car, I have to return it. They don't sell me the car under the auspices of a lease, with no way to ever return it, and still restrict my rights on what I can do with it.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to help poor people eat, you should give poor people money to help them eat, rather than paying farmers to make one specific type of farming easier and distorting the market to artificially favor something that's actually less efficient (and may have all sorts of crazy side effects on the rest of the world). Favoring direct intervention to fix the actual problem should be axiomatic, really.

> If you want to help poor people eat, you should give poor people money to help them eat The more food we can make per unit resource, the more food we have, given that resources are finite. Giving the poor more money does nothing to change that.

> The more food we can make per unit resource, the more food we have, given that resources are finite. Giving the poor more money does nothing to change that.

In the real world operating under market rules, there's not one rule that determines how much food we have. It's a function of how much you invest in the operation -- land, tractors, farm labor, irrigation, livestock feed, food processing, et cetera. People know how much food to produce and how to produce it because of PRICES. Higher food prices are encourage people to reduce food waste (by making it more expensive, making concepts like "leftovers" or "canning" more attractive) or divert resources towards producing food (e.g. by starting new farms, buying better farming equipment, or starting a garden in their backyard). It also discourages inefficient forms of feeding people by raising the price (e.g. making meat more expensive because it takes a boatload of resources to feed a cow). Lower food prices reduce the profit of farming, discouraging the over-exploitation of the land or over-investment in expensive capital like tractors.

In a subsidized environment, the real cost of things is detached from the sticker price at the supermarket. Food is still expensive, but it's not the consumer who's paying for it -- it's the taxpayer. So farms buy more heavy equipment than would naturally be efficient and burn more gasoline than is efficient, food processors waste more food than is efficient, people toss food in the trash more than is efficient, people grow rice in the California desert instead of importing it from somewhere that actually has rain, and midwestern farms destroy more prairie lands and Nature than is efficient, because why not? Taxpayers are paying for it, all crazy-indirectly, and they'd have to go through Congress and go up against big agribusiness lobbyists to get any of their money back. (Then the taxpayers find that they can't pay for other nice things they might want, because of the money going to taxes, and the economy suffers.)

By giving people who need money, money, instead of giving producers a subsidy, you avoid all that. Everyone eats, farms produce the right amount of food with a sane amount of tractors, big factory farms aren't given money that funky forest-culture farms aren't and so each style of farm prevails on its own merits, people with backyards start gardens and make preserves, et cetera.

TLDR: screw with the market's price mechanisms and you screw everything up

Postscript: This is all the fault of the FDR administration when you get down to it.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#257
post #244
post #48

Richard Stallman spent the last 30 years telling us this would happen. As soon as books become computer files, you don't buy them anymore, you lease usage rights. As soon as tractors contain computer code, you don't own them anymore, you are granted a license to use them. When will it stop? More and more everyday objects are incorporating software and firmware in many different forms. I remember reading Stallman's sh…

Yeah, I remember back before ebooks, we could all just Xerox the books we owned, bind them together, and sell or give away the copies to anyone we wanted to, and they could do the same. It was a lot more work than just copying a file, but everyone was perfectly fine with people doing it. Oh wait a minute, that's not at all what it was like. It's very easy to latch onto people like RMS who make everything seem so blac…

I just realized that I'm basically saying that RMS himself does not function in good faith, and I think that's the root of my distrust of him. He's the kind of person who likes to assemble elaborate ideologies over time. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who is instinctively skeptical about his own perceptions. I really don't get the sense that he ever plays devil's advocate with himself or actively tries to come up with the best arguments against his own beliefs in order to strengthen them.

If he had ever written anything in which he talked about how his views have evolved or changed over the course of his life, that would be one thing. But I don't think he's changed his mind about anything over the past 30 years, outside of becoming even more fundamentalist. I don't trust people who never change their minds about anything, especially those who think changing their mind is a sign of weakness. If they are widely known for declaring those who disagree with them as being evil or otherwise morally and ethically questionable, I not only don't trust them but start to think of them as toxic distractions to the real debates that we all should be having.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May still be corporate, because corporations are a way of structuring a business, not an indication of how large or how many people are involved with the business. I expect most family farms are also corporations or even multiple corporations.

No. Most family farms, at least in my part of the states, are not corporations. They are small businesses in that they have some tax exemptions for being farms, but they are not incorporated. Only the 'slick' farmers (you know, them city folks) or large businesses that are 'family farms' in name only are incorporated.

In fact, I know that several of my neighbours have a corporation setup for each generation of the family farm. These aren't slick city folks or even large businesses. They're every day family farmers that farm the exact same way I do (my farm isn't incorporated). But, like you suggest, maybe it is regional thing.

Re: We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Idea of Ownership

#259

What's really wrong with this? As a provider of goods or services, I should have the right to say, "I'm only renting you this, not selling it to you. If you want to buy it, go see someone else." If I build a house, I should be able to rent it out, and not sell it if I want to keep it. If the market demands builders to sell it, some will find a way. There's no intrinsic right to forcing people to have an option to buy…

I think the problem with this line of thinking is that most people think they're buying a car (including on board software). If it were clear to everyone that you are in fact only leasing the software, it might be better.

How can that be made any more clear than it already is? Pretty much all software a typical consumer ever uses works this way.
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