I Was an Animal Experimenter • Hacker News Board

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#61

Post by pvaldes » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 4:03 PM UTC

Luc wrote: post #56

dhmholley wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have some citations for that I'd be interested in reading them, because I've never heard that before.

I have only scanned it, but probably in here: http://jpsl.org/archives/history-and-implications-testing-th... "Lasagna [157] commented that once a chemical is known to cause birth defects in humans, an animal species or strain can usually be found that will replicate the response, but that this is not the same as prospectively predicting this response."

> tests were done and failed to produce deformities.

Lucey and Behrman. 1963. Thalidomide: effect upon pregnancy in the rhesus monkey. Science 139:1295-1296.

Hendrickx, Axelrod and Clayborn. 1966. 'Thalidomide' syndrome in baboons. Nature 210 (5039):958-959.

"Delahunt and Lassen induced typically malformed foetuses in four of seven pregnant Cynomolgus monkeys which were treated after implantation had already occurred"

Hendrickx, A. G., and L. Newman. 1973. Appendicular skeletal and visceral malformations induced by thalidomide in bonnet monkeys. Teratology 7 (2):151-159. doi:10.1002/tera.1420070206.

Please note the year of the articles. The studies with monkeys were made after the drug was distributed in many countries and thousands of babies without legs and arms started to born, not before.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#62

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #57

Thriptic wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite. Some times multiple times. (btw--she had horrid dexterity) NO IACUC at any university or any veterinarian would approve this. > Years ago some Researcher put a plywood cover on his truck. He then filled the truck with live piglets. He then went four wheel driving. He claimed to be studying orthopedic inj…

I recently attended a parents' meeting for the elementary school science fair. If the 5th-grade students were doing an experiment that involved animals, they had to fill out a stack of forms and collect the signature of a vet. If the experiment involved humans-- even if that involvement was as simple as answering a question -- each human participant had to sign a form. My kid, who also attended, said, "I'm doing my e…

Annoying? Likely, but once you have seen the abuses that have taken place over the last 50 years you will see why that is necessary.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#63

Post by philwelch » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

Luc wrote: post #11

Reading 'Animals Like Us' by Mark Rowlands made me realize that it is utterly reasonable to abstain from harming animals. There is a string of logic, starting from very basic principles of ethics, that makes it the rational thing to do (if you accept the basic principles). It's a sort of ethical math. Most people don't do the math because it's not obvious that some thought is needed, instead going with their gut feel…

Sorry, but starting from reasonable-sounding principles of ethics and following their logical consequences is how I became an anarcho-capitalist in my early 20's. Ethics can't be reduced to math.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#64

Post by Luc » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #61

Luc wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have only scanned it, but probably in here: http://jpsl.org/archives/history-and-implications-testing-th... "Lasagna [157] commented that once a chemical is known to cause birth defects in humans, an animal species or strain can usually be found that will replicate the response, but that this is not the same as prospectively predicting this response."

> tests were done and failed to produce deformities. Lucey and Behrman. 1963. Thalidomide: effect upon pregnancy in the rhesus monkey. Science 139:1295-1296. Hendrickx, Axelrod and Clayborn. 1966. 'Thalidomide' syndrome in baboons. Nature 210 (5039):958-959. "Delahunt and Lassen induced typically malformed foetuses in four of seven pregnant Cynomolgus monkeys which were treated after implantation had already occurred…

Yes, people kept on doing animal test after the deformities were confirmed on rabbits. That just makes it more fucked up, not less.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#65

Post by MrDosu » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #5

> That powerful talk made me realize that animals, like us, are sentient beings who have intelligence and experience fear and pain. Well yes, we're animals. I don't understand why adults still think of humans as somehow being not animals.

In a word: Lack of education

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#66

Post by pvaldes » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 5:24 PM UTC

Netcob wrote: post #7

nailer wrote: post #5

> That powerful talk made me realize that animals, like us, are sentient beings who have intelligence and experience fear and pain. Well yes, we're animals. I don't understand why adults still think of humans as somehow being not animals.

Especially the most basic and primitive emotions/sensations that influence our behavior very directly, like pain or panic. I get how fish might not experience "culture shock", "weltschmerz" or "ennui", but most of the things we feel every day aren't special at all.

I cant see a fish bored perfectly, or experiencing culture shock. Why not?. A lot of people fall in this trap with fishes. "Well, goldfishes are dumb, and goldfishes are fishes, therefore fishes are dumb".

To reduce the more diverse type of vertebrates, with more than 30.000 extant species, to the behaviour of a goldfish put in a matchbox of water is extreme oversimplification. Some fishes are very intelligent in fact. Not like an human but much more than a mice or a chicken for sure. Sadly the 90% of philosophers in history just didn't understand what type of creature is a fish and the derived reasoning about those had lead to funny dead ends.

But the real problem is that "to be able to feel pain or not" or "to live in water or not" are just subjective lines (Saving lion, moral act. Saving tuna, maybe tomorrow, tunas are dumb). We could also create different laws for vegan species (cow: moral, dog: amoral), or for species that can feel love and care for his descendants (butterfly: amoral, spider: a wonderfully moral creature), or that can feel electromagnetic fields, or that have four extremities with 5 fingers at the end (human good, spider and horses amoral) or that can live longer and pacific lives (humans so-so, sequoia great). The rules of this game are totally artificial from the start.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#67

Post by Luc » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 5:32 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #63

Luc wrote: post #11

Reading 'Animals Like Us' by Mark Rowlands made me realize that it is utterly reasonable to abstain from harming animals. There is a string of logic, starting from very basic principles of ethics, that makes it the rational thing to do (if you accept the basic principles). It's a sort of ethical math. Most people don't do the math because it's not obvious that some thought is needed, instead going with their gut feel…

Sorry, but starting from reasonable-sounding principles of ethics and following their logical consequences is how I became an anarcho-capitalist in my early 20's. Ethics can't be reduced to math.

I don't think caring for the well being of animals is that far out of the mainstream of ethical thinking.

Besides, it's my own take on the book, and perhaps Mark Rowlands wouldn't even recognise it from my description. Perhaps I didn't do it justice.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#68

Post by atlantic » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #54

marincounty wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Any surgery that happens must be done under anesthesia using approved chemicals." I had a girlfriend who was working on a some kind of graduate neuroscience degree in the late 90's. She used to tell me stories about students, and researchers killing/maiming animals in order to carry out their experiments. Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite.…

> Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite. Some times multiple times. (btw--she had horrid dexterity) NO IACUC at any university or any veterinarian would approve this. > Years ago some Researcher put a plywood cover on his truck. He then filled the truck with live piglets. He then went four wheel driving. He claimed to be studying orthopedic inj…

>If anything there is TOO MUCH regulation.

If you entertain the possibility that an animal can suffer as much as a human being, then all the regulation in the world is not enough. Consider even the most humane animal experiment, replace the animal with a human being, and see how you feel about it. Animals are living beings that we share the planet with; let them live their lives out in their natural environment. Animal experimentation should not even be contemplated, for exactly the same reason that wartime Nazi medical and eugenic experiments are condemned: for causing needless suffering in other living beings.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#69

Post by pvaldes » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

Luc wrote: post #64

pvaldes wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tests were done and failed to produce deformities. Lucey and Behrman. 1963. Thalidomide: effect upon pregnancy in the rhesus monkey. Science 139:1295-1296. Hendrickx, Axelrod and Clayborn. 1966. 'Thalidomide' syndrome in baboons. Nature 210 (5039):958-959. "Delahunt and Lassen induced typically malformed foetuses in four of seven pregnant Cynomolgus monkeys which were treated after implantation had already occurred…

Yes, people kept on doing animal test after the deformities were confirmed on rabbits. That just makes it more fucked up, not less.

You are not understanding the situation.

Let suposse that a mass murder kills 5000 babies, and mutilates other 5000. There will be a trial, right?, this is serious stuff. A complex trial with thousands of victims waiting for justice.

Will the lawyer of the victims, jump in this legal battlefield like going for a picnic, and show triumphant their one and only proof?("rabbits, didn't feel the need to investigate further because science is evil").

Will someone tell the police, "stop doing interviews, replicating the crime scene, looking for witness, asking the experts, we have one hint!. Dismiss the other proofs"?

Do you understand know, why a lot of work and experiments have to be done? Because there was dozens of trials in 46 countries and you need to know the truth without the slightest shadow of a doubt.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#70

Post by canvia » Tue, Apr 21, 2015, 8:04 PM UTC

The train of thought that has me leaning towards becoming vegetarian is along the lines of:

If an advanced alien species came to Earth, how would I want them to treat humans? How about in the case that they are advanced to a level that comparing their abilities and technology to humans would be the same as comparing human technology and abilities to that of birds or dogs or cows?

Would I want them to dismiss our primitive (from their perspective) nests as the work of an unintelligent beast? Would I want them to corral us into pens and feed us fattening foods before harvesting our bodies? Would I want them to feed us hormones and genetically modify our bodies to produce more milk or grow larger muscles for consumption? Would I want them to breed the outliers of our species to create extremely large and extremely small "pure-breeds" of humans as a novelty? Would I want them to dismiss our primitive verbal communication as nothing more than cheerful song and make no attempt at all to understand what we are trying to express?