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Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#21

Post by atom-morgan »

pbz wrote: post #18
wahsd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be such an idiot. I get it, you enjoy European infrastructure and social democracy. Remember though that you will pay half of the taxes you pay in Germany ... oh, did you just enjoy all the benefits of German infrastructure and society without actually paying any taxes, let alone your whole life? No one is keeping you from remaining in Germany, are they? I can guarantee you they will approve your work permit an…

> You want a double digit billion dollar MagLev train that connects Boise, Idaho with, St. Louise Missouri? That will be another 10% of your income No, just reallocate some of the hundreds of billions spent on wars / military and make something productive.

It's worth noting JR Central is a private company. So I don't think the Japanese are giving up any of their income unless they pay for a ride.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#22

Post by ant6n »

vilhelm_s wrote: post #19
ant6n wrote: post #12

What's interesting, the speed record for conventional bullet trains is 574.8 km/h, about 30km/h less! This was a TGV train, largely unmodified (although they did increase the tension in the caternary). The wiki article about the speed record is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record Makes you wonder whether the overhead of maglev is really worth it.

I think I've read somewhere that it's possible to run trains of steel rails really fast, but doing so creates lots of wear, so it would not be economical to do it routinely. That the big advantage of the maglev technology is not the absolute top speed, but the fact that the maintenance is cheap even at high speeds.

But it has to be economical: if the cost of wear over the life time of the system is less than the initial cost of building maglev, then you're still ahead.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#23

Post by vilhelm_s »

koyote wrote: post #5
melling wrote: post #2

How about low-speed maglev? China will open its first line later this year: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_S1,_BCR I imagine it's much cheaper to build and operate?

The reason for this is to cut down travel time. Japan already has a high-speed connection between almost all major cities, so this is just to speed up the link even more. What would a low-speed maglev accomplish?

It's less noisy than wheeled trains, and the maintenance cost for the track is lower.

http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/Culture/EnjoyBJ/t1192828.htm

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#24

Post by wahsd »

pbz wrote: post #18
wahsd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be such an idiot. I get it, you enjoy European infrastructure and social democracy. Remember though that you will pay half of the taxes you pay in Germany ... oh, did you just enjoy all the benefits of German infrastructure and society without actually paying any taxes, let alone your whole life? No one is keeping you from remaining in Germany, are they? I can guarantee you they will approve your work permit an…

> You want a double digit billion dollar MagLev train that connects Boise, Idaho with, St. Louise Missouri? That will be another 10% of your income No, just reallocate some of the hundreds of billions spent on wars / military and make something productive.

Ok, you go get right on that. I'll help you build that MagLev in our imagination. You are asking something that cannot be changed without drastic measures. You are asking American to not be the thing it is, a war mongering nation that has never not been at war or agitating and instigating or preparing for a war or conflict of some sort. We live in a war based economy with an insurmountable amount of support for exactly that in the voting populace.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#25

Post by mmaldacker »

wahsd wrote: post #14
zachalexander wrote: post #3

Amazing. Writing this from Berlin, which doesn't have maglev trains, but has phenomenal public transit. It's sad to be going back to the US soon where the infrastructure is so primitive.

Don't be such an idiot. I get it, you enjoy European infrastructure and social democracy. Remember though that you will pay half of the taxes you pay in Germany ... oh, did you just enjoy all the benefits of German infrastructure and society without actually paying any taxes, let alone your whole life? No one is keeping you from remaining in Germany, are they? I can guarantee you they will approve your work permit an…

>and also remember Berlin's system is essentially new and was rebuilt after reunification so you are looking at a modern system.

After the reunification, they only had to reconnect the lines that were separated by the wall. Only a few places needed some extensive work. You probably meant WW2 where most lines were destroyed. Note that Berlin was also one of the first cities in the world to have a metro system.

>No one is keeping you from remaining in Germany, are they? I can guarantee you they will approve your work permit and you can become a resident and eventual citizen.

The horror!

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#26

Post by ulfw »

wahsd wrote: post #14
zachalexander wrote: post #3

Amazing. Writing this from Berlin, which doesn't have maglev trains, but has phenomenal public transit. It's sad to be going back to the US soon where the infrastructure is so primitive.

Don't be such an idiot. I get it, you enjoy European infrastructure and social democracy. Remember though that you will pay half of the taxes you pay in Germany ... oh, did you just enjoy all the benefits of German infrastructure and society without actually paying any taxes, let alone your whole life? No one is keeping you from remaining in Germany, are they? I can guarantee you they will approve your work permit an…

Show me where in e.g. California taxes are HALF of those in Germany.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#27

Post by jasonkester »

I wonder if we'll ever get back to "High Speed Air" in my lifetime.

Back in the 70s, you could rock up at the airport twenty minutes before your flight left, jump on with minimal hassle, and cruise along at 600mph to your destination. Now, you need to endure two hours of having your fingernail clippers confiscated so that you can fly at 500mph to save on fuel costs.

That seems to be the true advantage of rail travel. As it said on the loudspeaker in Berlin HBF last time I was there: "Please try to arrive on the platform at least five minutes before your train is scheduled to depart."

Sadly, I bet the way we'll end up equalizing this will be that somebody will eventually bomb a TGV and we'll have to start doing the two hour confiscate-your-kids'-apple-juice routine at the train station too.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#28

Post by vilhelm_s »

ant6n wrote: post #20
m_mueller wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine that the wear on rolling stock and tracks as well as the power lost to friction makes Maglev worth it if you actually want to operate close to such speeds.

I'm not convinced. Some conventional rail operates at close to 400km/h today. This will operate at 500km/h - in 15 years. But it's completely incompatible with existing infrastructure, and thus doesn't allow incremental updates of either the infrastructure or the trains (i.e. no service in the mean time, and no ability to reuse existing tracks and stations in cities). Then consider the amount of research that's been…

I guess the usual counterpoint is: they have to build a new track anyway (the existing one is getting saturated). Building a rail track or a maglev track costs about the same (almost all the cost is making the tunnels), and the maglev track is better, so why not go with the maglev.

It was discussed a little bit for the new high speed train line in Britain, but rejected for the reasons you state in your first paragraph. But Japan seems much less worried about reusing trains (different lines are usually operated by different companies with different rolling stock). And somehow they were able to get this project funded even though it will be many years until first service---maybe they just are more competent than the west when it comes long-term investments? :) So maybe the trade-off came out differently there...

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#29

Post by cstross »

ant6n wrote: post #12

What's interesting, the speed record for conventional bullet trains is 574.8 km/h, about 30km/h less! This was a TGV train, largely unmodified (although they did increase the tension in the caternary). The wiki article about the speed record is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record Makes you wonder whether the overhead of maglev is really worth it.

Actually, the TGV record was set by a specially-rebuilt train set that was heavily customized -- and the test crew reportedly couldn't stand/walk around the instrument car at speeds over 500km/h due to vibration. (The track they ran the test on was newly-laid and not yet open to regular traffic: they had to replace most of the overhead cables from the stretch where the train hit maximum speed due to arcing and shock waves.)

The big difference is that the TGV record set pretty much an upper limit on steel-wheel speed -- horrible vibration, and the wheel rims were close to supersonic, which would have led to more shock waves if they'd pushed it faster. Similarly, Formula One cars go a lot faster than regular road vehicles, but you wouldn't want to commute to the office in one! Whereas this maglev test demonstrated a technology that would be comfortably usable at this speed.

Re: Japan maglev train breaks world speed record again

#30

Post by nharada »

dkhenry wrote: post #16
zachalexander wrote: post #3

Amazing. Writing this from Berlin, which doesn't have maglev trains, but has phenomenal public transit. It's sad to be going back to the US soon where the infrastructure is so primitive.

If you look at Washington DC's metro its pretty much the same QoS as you get off the Berlin metro. So I am not quite sure how its considered "primitive" Berlin - 4 - 5 minute trains DC - 6 minute trains Berlin - 9 lines, 170 stations DC - 6 lines, 91 stations and thats not even the biggest metro system in the US. So really the problem isn't going back to the US, its going back to whatever place you're going to in the…

Metro and subway systems in the US are to me basically comparable to systems abroad. I'd argue most US city rails are better than Berlin's.

Where you immediately notice is longer distance commuter and cross-country lines. I often take the train from Chicago to Detroit, and every time we stop partway for ~15-30 mins because the company can't run trains in both directions on the tracks. Even when we are moving, most of the time we can't come close to our top speed of 130 mph because we aren't on high speed track. Compare this to EU trains which run across the country non-stop at top speeds of 180 mph. Granted, not everywhere has high quality service, but most major cities do, which definitely can't be said about the US.

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