1.5 Million Missing Black Men • Hacker News Board

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#241

Post by im3w1l » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

kaa2102 wrote: post #20

I'm a Black Man. Growing up there was a realization that being alive and out of trouble over the age of 21 was an accomplishment. This would extend to middle class. Due to a history of American apartheid, there were often just a few degrees of separation between middle class and working/poor class kin.

I hope you don't mind me asking you this.

I've had this idea, that I think may make the situation better. They idea is that in black-on-black, as well as victimless crimes, the defendant is allowed to be judged by a jury of black people. Then the black community can decide for itself what punishments are best for the community, and could give more lenient punishments if the current ones are seen as harsh enough to be harmful.

Do you think it could work?

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#242

Post by brc » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #13

> The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce, while men, who face an abundant supply of potential mates, don’t need to compete as hard to find one. As a result, Mr. Charles said, “men seem less likely to commit to romantic relationships, or to work hard to maintain them.” Interesting, I never thought about this side-effect of mass incarceration. Another aggravating factor in…

Many middle eastern countries practice polygamy which deprives many lower status men of the chance of having a partner and children. The high status men also enforce heavy penalties for adultery to ensure their collection of wives is not cuckolded by other men. Coupled with the inequality where women are treated as property and this indeed does remove the tempering influence of women.

There is little doubt that the triggering of protective behaviour that comes with fatherhood is a benefit to any society.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#243

Post by Taniwha » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

illumen wrote: post #184

Taniwha wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well that and slavery

Is it slavery if people are working for almost free in prison because of some absurd crime and a bullshit justice system? Yes. Therefore slavery still exists. It just got sneaky. Well sort of sneaky - the English were calling their white slaves convicts. When people did crimes like steal bread, they could be sent all the way across the oceans on six month voyages to work. Yeah, they could eventually be free... but ev…

the point I was trying to make was that there are actually things worse than apartheid

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#244

Post by throwaway8198 » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #13

> The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce, while men, who face an abundant supply of potential mates, don’t need to compete as hard to find one. As a result, Mr. Charles said, “men seem less likely to commit to romantic relationships, or to work hard to maintain them.” Interesting, I never thought about this side-effect of mass incarceration. Another aggravating factor in…

The main reason for disaffected middle eastern young men is:

1) lack of career prospects, especially for university graduates 2) because of #1, young men cannot afford a matrimonial house and ceremony, so can't get laid (adultery is a capital crime.)

That's why 72 virgins in the afterlife is very appealing ... because they aren't getting any in this life.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#245

Post by brc » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #44

Historically this was solved by polygamy. (The cause of the missing men back then was usually war and travel danger on business expeditions.) Polygamy is still occurring, except without the official status of wife. Makes me wonder if the benefits of outlawing polygamy in the US might not outweigh the harm - especially because it happens anyway.

Polygamy is a bad thing because it concentrates power, decreases equality for women and increases resentment by lowers status men, who have little hope of a happy life. Usually polygamy only create a small set of legitimate heirs and a larger subset of 'bastards' who also have little prospects in life within these societies.

Polygamy is actually a rarity in human societies, and while it definitely exists as a cultural practice, it's usually in a society with heavy restrictions on freedom. What is more usual is monogamous relationships with a small amount of adultery on the side. Given the choice of the two, the latter is arguably a better choice for societies, which is why it is the norm.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#246

Post by BibleBelt » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #108

kaa2102 wrote: post #20

I'm a Black Man. Growing up there was a realization that being alive and out of trouble over the age of 21 was an accomplishment. This would extend to middle class. Due to a history of American apartheid, there were often just a few degrees of separation between middle class and working/poor class kin.

In the US we had segregation, not apartheid. There is a difference. As a white man living in the South, we still have segregation in practice. I rarely had interaction with blacks because they did different things and took different classes at school. We all went to the same schools---just didn't have the same classes or have the same social circles. Not much shared in the way of culture. I have had some black friend…

Since we're sharing anecdotes:

    As a white man living in the South, we still have segregation
    in practice. I rarely had interaction with blacks because they
    did different things and took different classes at school. We
    all went to the same schools---just didn't have the same classes
    or have the same social circles.

As a white man who was a child in southwestern Missouri in the 1980s, I took the bus to school. A black family with children moved into the area. When the black children tried to board the bus, the white children screamed and yelled at them and wouldn't let them board.

I never saw them again, so I don't know if they went on to have the same social circles as white people.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#247

Post by itsybitsy » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

happyscrappy wrote: post #155

ck2 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right of course. What I am trying to point out is how some naive people look around and say well I got myself a job and got myself stable without assistance so why shouldn't everyone have to do it on their own? But the thing is, if you are white in the USA, your great grandfather probably came to this country as an immigrant and lived very simply while making a little progress and making a little money. Then your gra…

Except that doesn't happen with recent immigrants who do very well, some of them Africans.

The self-selected groups of recent immigrants are not a random sampling of their countries of origin [1]. 1. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1814529?uid=2&uid=4&si...

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#248

Post by brc » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:08 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #109

chaostheory wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the study to cite, but if I remember correctly an old study found that while most males of all ethnicities are open to relationships with females of different ethnicities given attractive qualities are sufficient (I could be wrong but only physical attraction was measured in this study); they found that most females tend to only go for males within their own ethnic group. The exception was Asian women wi…

In Asian culture Asian woman always have a strong preference for other Asians (this is of course generalizing across the different Asian cultures), especially from the same Asian race. But there's a strong fetishizing of Asian women by certain non-Asian men so there's a disproportionate amount of Asian-women-chasing by white men that gets misconstrued as preference by Asian women. If everyone preferred blue M&Ms, you…

I'm guessing this comment is based on personal experience, perhaps difficulty in success with some Asian women.

I once dated a very attractive Asian woman. What was surprising to me was that lots of Asian guys who would have normally passed me on the street without comment were all of a sudden making snide remarks. It seemed to me that these guys felt like I was stealing one of 'their girls' or something. It's just an anecdote, but it was surprising to me. It probably happens to anyone in a mixed race relationship, in the same way that unattractive guys with a hot girlfriend get comments about 'she can do better than you'.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#249

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce,...The imbalance has also forced women to rely on themselves — often alone... There is a pretty obvious solution to this problem which has been legal since 1967. It works well and the babies come out really cute. Weird how the NYT glosses that over...

It works well and the babies come out really cute.

All right, let's run this scenario forward in time. You meet a nice black lady, you fall in love, get married, and have a son. Now, while I hope things will be better in future, chances are that many structural racial disparities will still exist 10, 15, 20 years from now, though hopefully to a lesser degree.

So your hypothetical son comes to you in the year 2030 and says 'Dad, quite a lot of people express hostility towards me on the basis that I'm black. Help me out.'

What are you going to say? Tell him that it's a solved problem as far as you are concerned? Or tell him to just ignore the issue (even though it might be quite a pressing problem for him)?

It's hard to escape the impression that you haven't really thought through the ramifications of this particular situation. Likewise, I suspect the reason that black women aren't just shrugging their shoulders and electing to marry outside their own ethnicity is at least partly because they're painfully aware that their offspring are likely to run into the same sort of problems they've faced themselves.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#250

Post by fecklessyouth » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:12 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #194

fecklessyouth wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that boys need exposure to women before adulthood, with the exception of their mother, is a relatively modern one. The extent to which the modern west mixes the sexes through education and other social activities is unprecedented, so the Middle East is not nearly alone in this respect. Of course, things change in adulthood, and if young Middle Eastern men who would normally be entering stable relationships w…

The major restraining factor on young men in a village or tribal setting was always the rest of the village. When the demographics became unbalanced (war, famine) then young gangs were always to be feared (Peter Pans lost boys would not have been cute) We are fortunate in having overcome hunger in 4/5ths of the world - but it has left a lot of time on people's hands compared to a hunter gather lifestyle and a lot of…

"Is Marriage for White People?" attempts to answer that question. As I remember it, the main answer was that black women don't want to date outside their race.

http://www.amazon.com/Is-Marriage-White-People-American/dp/B...