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The Man Who Broke the Music Business

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21–30 of 76 posts

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the majority of people, mp3s seem to be "just as good" enough. I remember some low-bitrate songs encoded with some very early encoder where you could hear a difference. Not necessarily "the" difference but "a" difference. After a couple of years the worst encoder anyone could find was better already and since 192kbps bitrates mp3s were 99.999% there. I'm sure that a trained ear can hear differences between 256kbp…

The conventional wisdom is just that - MP3s don't sound any different than their CD counterpart, but we all know that they don't have the same degree of fidelity to the original mastered audio files. While it is true that most cannot detect the differences between MP3 (and other lossy formats) and PCM (lossless) audio, this is beginning to change as consumers become used to a higher quality of sound delivery than bef…

Music consumers won't catch up to the decay that mp3's cause, _by definition_. Consumers only listen to music. The most sensitive, highly trained ears listening to the absolute best equipment in a perfect environment cannot reliably tell the difference between a decent mp3 and the original CD. Anybody who tries to distinguish guesses wrong as often as they guess right. Anybody who thinks they can tell the difference either got lucky the first time and quit testing, or is doing a flawed test (improper blinding, bad encoder, etc.)

The only way any consumer will ever notice that music is from an MP3 is if it's a bad encoding. That's the fault of whoever chose the encoding parameters, or picked an obsolete encoder. But even CDs aren't immune from stupid people. Lots of poor quality CDs are produced. I actually bought a major label CD with a song that clipped! It was mastered so loud that it clipped, and they didn't even bother to fix it. That's the sort of problem you can detect with software -- if you're deaf, because even my grandma could hear the flaw. How that got released, I'll never know. Yuck!

Only music producers may notice the "decay" you speak of. MP3 compression throws away data. It's data that no human ear can possibly hear, but when you're in the business of making music, you want to do things like process samples to change how they sound. It's possible to transform uncompressed audio data to bring out sounds that weren't audible before. Those inaudible sounds are likely to be thrown away by an mp3 encoder, making that sort of processing impossible.

But even CD quality PCM audio isn't lossless. It's perfect for listening to, but it's not great for processing. Music is often recorded and processed at higher bit-depths and frequencies before being compressed down to CD quality. You can't possibly hear the difference among studio quality 24 bit 192 khz, CD-quality 16 bit 44 khz, and a good mp3 encoding -- but the studio quality data gives you more processing headroom.

The photography world has analogous issues. Professional photographers and serious amateurs often shoot "raw". Their camperas are capable of producing normal jpeg files, but they don't use that feature. Instead they shoot and process massive, uncompressed files containing the raw sensor data. They then export the processed raw files to jpeg for publishing or printing. You can't see the difference between a raw file and a jpeg. (Actually, a jpeg straight off the camera often looks better than the raw file because the camera does a bit of processing.) The reason photographers bother with the big, unwieldy raw files is that they have more processing headroom. If a raw photo is too dark and there's a big black shadow in one corner, you can ofter brighten it up in postpressing and reveal the flowers that were there. If you do the same to a jpeg, which has much less information, the big black shadow will often brighten up into a big gray shadow. The "invisible" detail in the flowers has been thrown away during compression. The point is, the original unprocessed images looked the same. The differences are invisible in the same way that the differences between CD audio and good mp3s are inaudible. The differences only matter when you go to process the data.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#22

I remember seeing people at flea markets selling bootleg compact discs. They'd rent a booth and have boxes and boxes of them in those fluorescent colored plastic holders, the ones you could buy in 500 packs at Sam's Club or Egghead. Some of them even printed out fake covers and labels on inkjet printers, heck they would be doing it in between customers. I couldn't figure out why the cops never came and shut them down…

My favorite movie pirate story was the LAPD captain (Hollywood division, no less) who was arrested for supplying stores with pirated DVDs.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/dec/10/local/me-dvd10

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#23
post #2

...if the MP3 was just as good, why bother with the CD... The thing is, MP3 _isn't_ “just as good”. A rendering in lossless compression from a CD still sounds different than a 320 kBPS MP3. Which is why I just can't get over the iTunesStore selling sound in 256 kBPS. Much too bad. Amazon does 320 kBPS, but it's still not good enough.

I wish this website had a downvote button of sorts as this is a ridiculous notion. You have VBR MP3s that rival vinyl. You have FLAC, you have Ogg. People say "lossless" is such a big deal with MP3s but your ear can't really discern anything (unless you're still a teenager) above 256kbps anyways. It largely depends on the speakers, monitors & how they are made that you're listening through. Do your research.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#24
This reminds me of using oth.net to browse ftps for tracks in late 1990s. I used to burn custom mixes for friends in high school back then before napster exploded and everyone had a burner. On a 28.8 or even 56k connection it was an amazingly tedious process to download tracks from ftps. It is pretty insane how you can download an entire discography today in the amount of time it took to download some single tracks back then. oth.net is still active today it looks like, crazy.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#25
post #2

...if the MP3 was just as good, why bother with the CD... The thing is, MP3 _isn't_ “just as good”. A rendering in lossless compression from a CD still sounds different than a 320 kBPS MP3. Which is why I just can't get over the iTunesStore selling sound in 256 kBPS. Much too bad. Amazon does 320 kBPS, but it's still not good enough.

I wish this website had a downvote button of sorts as this is a ridiculous notion. You have VBR MP3s that rival vinyl. You have FLAC, you have Ogg. People say "lossless" is such a big deal with MP3s but your ear can't really discern anything (unless you're still a teenager) above 256kbps anyways. It largely depends on the speakers, monitors & how they are made that you're listening through. Do your research.

>I wish this website had a downvote button of sorts

Have a read of the FAQ:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#26
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could tell the difference. I produce music, and I can usually tell the difference between low and high bit-rate MP3s. Certain sounds are handled poorly at lower bit-rates: especially high-frequency sounds - you tend to hear obvious artifacting which comes across as 'mushy'. The link above is clearly a biased example where there are barely any real high-end sounds, and therefore it would easily fool an untrained ear…

Being totally sincere and serious here; but could you create such a test?

I can hear the difference, I also produce music.

It would be incredibly easy to produce a better test. The hard part is getting permission from copyright holders.

Now - I'm sure a lot of people can't hear the difference because they don't know what to listen for.

The issue isn't that the difference doesn't exist or that it's "not audible" in some objective sense.

It's that they're not listening to the sound in the same way a producer or engineer listen to sound.

Listening is an active process. It involves a lot of unconscious focussing on specific elements of the sound/music.

You can argue whether or not this matters, but that's really an economic argument about distribution and storage costs, not an absolute argument about the physics of audio compression.

Saying the difference isn't audible at all is like saying that you may as well quantise all rhythms right on the beat because most people can't tell by ear if beats are early or late.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#27
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the majority of people, mp3s seem to be "just as good" enough. I remember some low-bitrate songs encoded with some very early encoder where you could hear a difference. Not necessarily "the" difference but "a" difference. After a couple of years the worst encoder anyone could find was better already and since 192kbps bitrates mp3s were 99.999% there. I'm sure that a trained ear can hear differences between 256kbp…

The conventional wisdom is just that - MP3s don't sound any different than their CD counterpart, but we all know that they don't have the same degree of fidelity to the original mastered audio files. While it is true that most cannot detect the differences between MP3 (and other lossy formats) and PCM (lossless) audio, this is beginning to change as consumers become used to a higher quality of sound delivery than bef…

>The popularity of Beats headphones, for instance, meant that hip hop producers could no longer just push the limiter until the sub bass begins to sound farty - their fans were all equipped to hear the differences now.

I think you're being overly charitable about how well Beats perform.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#29

This reminds me of using oth.net to browse ftps for tracks in late 1990s. I used to burn custom mixes for friends in high school back then before napster exploded and everyone had a burner. On a 28.8 or even 56k connection it was an amazingly tedious process to download tracks from ftps. It is pretty insane how you can download an entire discography today in the amount of time it took to download some single tracks b…

I made some pretty good beer money running one of those FTP sites by making people download Bonzai buddy for a password. I feel a bit bad for advancing that purple ape, but at least I could increase my sysadmin skills on something that didn't matter.

Re: The Man Who Broke the Music Business

#30
post #2

...if the MP3 was just as good, why bother with the CD... The thing is, MP3 _isn't_ “just as good”. A rendering in lossless compression from a CD still sounds different than a 320 kBPS MP3. Which is why I just can't get over the iTunesStore selling sound in 256 kBPS. Much too bad. Amazon does 320 kBPS, but it's still not good enough.

Back in the time period being talked about, 96kbps was common, 128kbps was top of the line (no VBR), and absolutely you can hear the difference between that and uncompressed.
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