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The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

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Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#11
post #10

This right here is one of the driving forces behind American corporatism. While these cases are always launched claiming to be on the side of the angels, they ultimately ignore that all that extra legal overhead is not free, and only the currently large companies will be able to manage it, essentially barring any smaller competitors from entering the market. If a court rules that Uber drivers must be employees, then…

That's kind of an entitled attitude. Society puts certain obligations on businesses, and providing certain benefits to employees is one of them. If you're too small to meet those obligations, then you shouldn't get a free pass on them. That just leaves the workers out in the cold.[1] I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that we should pay for those benefits with taxes instead of pushing the burden on employers, but that's a separate argument.

[1] Although I'm actually not convinced the premise of Uber drivers being employees is correct.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#12
post #8

If cases like Liss-Riordan’s are successful, on-demand companies would have to pay overtime, deductions from wages, and, in California, the expenses incurred by their service providers. Those costs would mount into the millions, and proponents of the on-demand economy worry that they could force successful companies out of business. Surely taxes and expenses still have to be paid, and the "independent contractors" se…

[deleted]

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#13
post #11
post #10

This right here is one of the driving forces behind American corporatism. While these cases are always launched claiming to be on the side of the angels, they ultimately ignore that all that extra legal overhead is not free, and only the currently large companies will be able to manage it, essentially barring any smaller competitors from entering the market. If a court rules that Uber drivers must be employees, then…

That's kind of an entitled attitude. Society puts certain obligations on businesses, and providing certain benefits to employees is one of them. If you're too small to meet those obligations, then you shouldn't get a free pass on them. That just leaves the workers out in the cold.[1] I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that we should pay for those benefits with taxes instead of pushing the burden on employe…

_American_ society puts those obligations on businesses, and those obligations have created an economy that rewards those who are either already wealthy, or the backing of those who are. This is very directly giving more power to the rich. I don't see how criticising the very necessity of health benefits, one of the biggest costs of hiring employees, is at all a separate argument. There are many other countries which don't have such strict requirements around employee classification, yet are still serious about important obligations such as workplace safety and protections against harassment.

I don't want to spend my morning dumping on the US, but I'm amazed at just how often your poor and very poor are convinced to support causes that only help the very rich.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#15
post #8

If cases like Liss-Riordan’s are successful, on-demand companies would have to pay overtime, deductions from wages, and, in California, the expenses incurred by their service providers. Those costs would mount into the millions, and proponents of the on-demand economy worry that they could force successful companies out of business. Surely taxes and expenses still have to be paid, and the "independent contractors" se…

> I assume Uber's business model doesn't rely on contractors tax-dodging or skimping on vehicle maintenance!

Umm. That is a bad assumption. Uber's business model depends on foisting liability to anyone but themselves while simultaneously dodging the regulatory constraints on taxi drivers. So while its not specifically dependent on their contractors tax dodging, making that behavior easier leads to a lower cost of labor so the incentives are aligned all wrong. Basically, Uber doesn't perform any kind of reasonable verification beyond a figleaf on anything and hopes contractors won't cheat in a way that reflects badly on Uber.

This leads to situations like this:

http://www.chron.com/news/transportation/article/How-Uber-dr...

> The city of Houston's criminal background checks have detected numerous crimes by prospective Uber drivers, ranging from aggravated robbery to driving on a suspended license, according to a report prepared for a Texas House legislative hearing Thursday.

> In information prepared for the legislative hearing Thursday, Houston officials said Uber's background checks have problems; Wyoming, for example, is omitted from its search.

> Because Uber's check, done by a company called Hirease, is based on Social Security numbers rather than fingerprints, it can be more easily manipulated, the city says.

Their entire business model depends on their ability to avoid doing things properly. If it didn't, they wouldn't be intentionally endangering their passengers by cutting corners on things like background checks.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#16
post #8

If cases like Liss-Riordan’s are successful, on-demand companies would have to pay overtime, deductions from wages, and, in California, the expenses incurred by their service providers. Those costs would mount into the millions, and proponents of the on-demand economy worry that they could force successful companies out of business. Surely taxes and expenses still have to be paid, and the "independent contractors" se…

> I assume Uber's business model doesn't rely on contractors tax-dodging or skimping on vehicle maintenance!

I'm not sure that's a good assumption.

Nobody is valuing taxi companies at $40b. Part of why they're so appealing from an investment perspective is that Uber's model is a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose proposition. Any time money gets made, Uber gets a big cut. Costs and most downside risks are transferred to the drivers.

That includes risks that the capital costs (that is, buying the cars) and the maintenance costs aren't really justified by the revenues. It also includes the risk that there are too many drivers available.

If I were in Uber's shoes, I would worry about the defensibility of the business model. At least here in SF, drivers often participate in multiple services. For consumers, switching is as easy as installing a new app. If Uber is consistently more expensive, then I could imagine a lot of people switching. One way to keep costs low is to screw the workers as much as possible, and pretending that employees are contractors is a pretty popular way of screwing workers.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#17
post #10

This right here is one of the driving forces behind American corporatism. While these cases are always launched claiming to be on the side of the angels, they ultimately ignore that all that extra legal overhead is not free, and only the currently large companies will be able to manage it, essentially barring any smaller competitors from entering the market. If a court rules that Uber drivers must be employees, then…

I agree US businesses would be better off if we make our health care system work like any other civilized country. Tying health care to employers has turned out to be a terrible mess. But I think you're wrong about the general dynamic of class action suits.

There are two basic approaches to running a functioning society. You can establish a fair bit of regulation on how each thing is supposed to work and enforce it vigorously, or you can establish some relatively basic principles and then give people a right of private action through the courts.

Every country does some of each, of course. But America leans more heavily on the latter. And I think it's generally good, because it allows for more innovation. The government doesn't have to try to regulate each new thing. Companies know that if they fuck up and harm people, they'll end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

One problem with this approach is that it doesn't work well for small harms. If I find a way to fuck over every American to the tune of $10 each, I make $3b. That pile of cash lets me easily fend off the few Don Quixotes who sue me over $10. A class action suit, though, lets one lawyer sue on behalf of every American, and the opportunity of winning back $3b makes the gamble worth it.

As an entrepreneur, I much prefer the American approach. As long as I'm responsible, lawsuits aren't a huge risk, and I don't have to get advance approval from the Department of Commerce, Internet Apps Division, before I ship each new version.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#18
post #16
post #8

If cases like Liss-Riordan’s are successful, on-demand companies would have to pay overtime, deductions from wages, and, in California, the expenses incurred by their service providers. Those costs would mount into the millions, and proponents of the on-demand economy worry that they could force successful companies out of business. Surely taxes and expenses still have to be paid, and the "independent contractors" se…

> I assume Uber's business model doesn't rely on contractors tax-dodging or skimping on vehicle maintenance! I'm not sure that's a good assumption. Nobody is valuing taxi companies at $40b. Part of why they're so appealing from an investment perspective is that Uber's model is a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose proposition. Any time money gets made, Uber gets a big cut. Costs and most downside risks are transferred to the…

Nobody is valuing taxi companies at $40b

A legal Uber already exists (in London): it's called Addison Lee. Smartphone app and everything. It's worth £300M, not $40Bn!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22230868

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#19
post #16
post #8

If cases like Liss-Riordan’s are successful, on-demand companies would have to pay overtime, deductions from wages, and, in California, the expenses incurred by their service providers. Those costs would mount into the millions, and proponents of the on-demand economy worry that they could force successful companies out of business. Surely taxes and expenses still have to be paid, and the "independent contractors" se…

> I assume Uber's business model doesn't rely on contractors tax-dodging or skimping on vehicle maintenance! I'm not sure that's a good assumption. Nobody is valuing taxi companies at $40b. Part of why they're so appealing from an investment perspective is that Uber's model is a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose proposition. Any time money gets made, Uber gets a big cut. Costs and most downside risks are transferred to the…

>> pretending that employees are contractors is a pretty popular way of screwing workers.

I have a feeling that sooner or later, possibly in a country like France, they're gonna get called on this and dragged through the courts for big bucks.

Re: The lawyer taking on Uber and the rest of the on-demand economy

#20
post #10

This right here is one of the driving forces behind American corporatism. While these cases are always launched claiming to be on the side of the angels, they ultimately ignore that all that extra legal overhead is not free, and only the currently large companies will be able to manage it, essentially barring any smaller competitors from entering the market. If a court rules that Uber drivers must be employees, then…

>While these cases are always launched claiming to be on the side of the angels, they ultimately ignore that all that extra legal overhead is not free, and only the currently large companies will be able to manage it, essentially barring any smaller competitors from entering the market.

This is a well known phenomenon in public choice economics, colloquially referred to as "Bootleggers and Baptists"[0] after an observation during Prohibition.

In brief, the morally righteous and the morally suspect share a common interest in some regulatory goal. The righteous, or "Baptists," want to make the world a better place, e.g. by restricting the sale of alcohol. The morrally suspect, or "Bootleggers," want the same restriction in place because it protects their source of income, i.e. it is more profitable for a bootlegger to sell illegal alcohol than legal and the illegality of their venture discourages competition.

That being said, I am never convinced by a statement akin to the article's "Deep-pocketed companies like Uber, which has raised nearly $5 billion in venture capital since launching, could surely afford the additional expense of putting drivers on its payroll." Being cash-rich, high-revenue, or any other sign of corporate success does not indicate that arbitrary costs can be imposed with trivial impact. It may be true in any specific case, but it is a bold claim requiring more analysis and backing than "they're rich." Affluence does not indicate immunity to costs, nor does it change any reasonable cost-benefit analysis.

Ninja Edit: An effect we see with this phenomenon is that the "Baptists" often move on to their next righteous cause after securing regulation/legislation against the first vicious behavior, content that they have addressed an evil in society. Authorities can point to the Good Thing they did, and bootleggers continue on with their vicious trade.

I would also like to note that I hope we don't get hung up in the language of morality I have used. I chose the morally heavy verbiage primarily because the name of the phenomenon lends itself to such discussion. I am not herein passing any sort of moral judgment on either side of the issue (in my examples or in the case at hand in the article), merely using the language to help identify the goals and motivations of the actors playing either role. The important thing to note is that, regardless of actual moral quality or efficacy, the "Baptist" believes they are doing good for society at large, and the "Bootlegger" has a self-serving interest. These motivations do not imply that the "Baptist" is actually doing good (intention != results), nor do they imply that the "Bootlegger" is actually doing bad ("It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."[1]).

[0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists

[1]http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN1.html I.2.2

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