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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#171
A great documentary miniseries about this topic is War: A Commentary by Gwynne Dyer. In particular, the episode anyone's son will do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_%28miniseries%29 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShDaJXK5qo

The episode covers what goes into training young people who enter the marine core. It features candid interviews with drill sergeants and the recruits themselves about their motivations. Well worth a watch.

One of the main points the episode makes is that the job of being a soldier is ultimately about killing and dying, something that doesn’t come naturally to most people. The method for turning young men into soldiers is basic training.

According to Dyer the secret of basic training is that its not really about teaching people, its about changing people. He claims that if you want to change people quickly and radically, you put them in a place where the only right way to think and behave is the way you want them to. You isolate them and then apply enormous physical and mental pressure. i.e basic training. Essentially he claims that basic training is all about brain washing.

In the linked interview Sebastian Junger talks a lot about what it means to be a man. In particular:

“In that kind of environment,” Junger continues. “If you dare talk about what it means to be a man, what you’re saying is men are different from women.”

and

“We aren’t asking, ‘What does it mean to be a human being?’” he says. “‘What’s it mean to be a man?’ Once you have that conversation you offend a lot of academics.”

and

“Men are clearly wired for [war],” he continues. “The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species.”

He doesn't quite claim that young mens desire to go to war has its roots purely in biology but he comes close. Personally I don't buy it.

I think the concept of going to war as a rite of passage, particularly in the USA, is a social construct that’s largely the result of pervasive propaganda. The US military has an impressive marketing budget and aggressively recruits in schools right across the country. In the US, joining the military is not seen as a weird or embarrassing thing to do. In contrast, in my country (Ireland), joining the military is seen as a somewhat odd choice.

What’s interesting about Dyer’s documentary is that it interviews recruits before they go through basic training. Many of them are poor with few job prospects and no sense of direction. The military gives them a sense of purpose and is socially acceptable thing to do.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#172
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there a Papist plot to keep Europe at war? Between the establishment of the papacy in Rome and the downfall of Napoleon, there had been no decade that Europe was not at war.

you're probably american, so you're forgiven for this ignorance, but europe consists of +-50 sovereign states. Even now with EU (that doesn't contain many states), declaring a war is always matter of a given nation. Apples to ants...

The GP said between the establishment of the papacy to Napoleon, so he's speaking about events well before there were 50 sovereign states in Europe or an EU.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#173
There is a saying, I can't remember from where, that old men send young men to war because the old men know what war is. I think I'm telling it wrong. The original I heard implied exploitation.

The article is about young men choosing to go to war, in our all-volunteer military, but there wouldn't be a war to choose to enter if the mostly old, mostly white, mostly men in Congress didn't choose to have one.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

I wouldn't say that about the UK - perhaps because military leadership has traditionally been so closely aligned with our social classes (i.e. if you are posh and go to a public school then you are officer material). A lot of private (what we call "public") schools have Army/Air-Force cadet groups which are supported by the real armed forces and often have ex-forces staff working in the school.

There is a good chance my view is heavily biased, obviously at one point in every European country the military was held in high regard, regardless of class. My perception is that at least in Germany being an officer is no longer something most young people would aspire to or even consider as a career path. Nor is volunteering for the army considered a particularly attractive option. Obviously other countries might have larger success in indoctrinating the young, US propaganda and Hollywood certainly do a good job at glorifying their military.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#175
The day after the Pearl Harbor attack my grandfather literally dropped everything he was doing and enlisted. Why? A visceral disgust that resulted in a sense of responsibility, or duty to take action. I know a lot of people who did the same after 9/11. War is dumb but a strong military is necessary, and I'm sure others here can explain the game theory behind it all.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#176
Timing of this article is interesting: Yesterday I watched the prescreening of "The Water Diviner". It is the story of an Australian father looking for his 3 sons killed during the Gallipoli Campaign in Turkey in 1915. As the father of a young son, his story resonated with me.

Young men might have an excuse, but we, older men, should know better. Even when we didn't live through a war, we should be smart enough to understand its realities, its destructive power, its cruelty. We must stop wars before they start. None of it is worth a young man's life.

We should teach our children how ugly weapons are and how valuable life is.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#177
Because there are army recruiters in american high schools...

This for me was an unbelievable experience as a German, where if the army would be involved with any kind of school it would be a major scandal. But while in high school in america it was normal to be propagandaed on during your lunch hour.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#178
I'd say this article is mostly spot on... the assertion that this is male biological urge is probably true. I believe at its core it is a desire to identify oneself as a member of a group of "manly" males and to prove one's worth and garner the respect of the already prestigious members of that group.

This actually plays out in a lot of areas... fraternities, urban gangs, Github, etc. The dynamic of dividing humanity into "insiders" and "outsiders" follows closely as well. That dynamic is used to dehumanize all "outsiders" so that the goals of the group can be placed above morality and ethics.

I believe these things are true because I'm a slow learner and have been suckered into this dynamic more than once... I tried a college fraternity for a short while (after being accepted, rejected it and dropped out of college), fell in with the wrong crowd and did drugs until my eyes rolled so far back into my head that I swear I was able to see my brain (stopped altogether after somewhat harrowing experiences) and joined the US Army to shoot artillery after 9/11 (went to Afghanistan and after I got back became a conscientious objector before being put out administratively with an "honorable" discharge).

In the US, mass media is the fertilizer for mass murder... we teach young men that their number 1 goal is to be manly... and that women are just holes to fuck... and that you need to fuck as many holes as possible to be manly... and that explosions are cool... and that you need to create and survive explosions to be manly... and that streetfighting is cool... and that you need to be in a bunch of streetfights to be manly... I could keep going but I think you all get the point.

If the culture changes men will stop going to war unless they are forced to... while the biological urges described above can be exploited to manipulate peoples' actions, those urges could be channeled to positive actions instead, and they are certainly not a free pass to commit the atrocities that most people just pretend don't exist. This is the area where I disagree with the author if the article... it actually does start and stop with those who pull the trigger

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GW1 militarily was a huge success, Kuwait - a "five feet high nation" in the Lloyd George sense, was defended from aggression from its much bigger, nastier neighbour. The principal of territorial integrity was upheld. The strategic aims were upheld. It was our business, and should be our business. That's the whole point of things like the UN charter - remember there were a series of UN resolutions condemning the inva…

> The principal of territorial integrity was upheld. The strategic aims were upheld. Let's be honest, the US cares about those only in there's oil or other goodies involved (see the lack of response to the current situation in Ukraine, where there's little to gain and much to lose for the US).

The change in leadership explains the change in response. Obama does not believe the US should have the same role in the world the Bush did.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#180
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a documented case of a war that didn't result in any torture and rape?

I doubt it. However, a man (or woman) could go to war to defend their country against an aggressor and do so effectively without torturing or raping anyone. However, they pretty much have to be prepared to kill people... Indeed many modern armies will investigate and eventually punish rapists and torturers whilst they giving medals for doing lots of killing... So 'murder' (or killing people) is a necessary condition…

Point accepted, I forgot to consider defending against outside invaders.
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