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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#161

Post by orbifold »

gaius wrote: post #156
saiya-jin wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now sir, you got this one wrong. for intellectually based people (let's assume most college people are), dating with somebody you don't have that much to say is meaningless and frustrating experience. same goes for (most) guys too.

If that is the point the OP is trying to make, then why single out the military? And all that nonsense about the "right wing" (clue: militarism is equally distributed throughout the political spectrum).

Well I'm speaking of the political spectrum in the German army "http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article109241172/Welt.... According to the linked article 70% are close to the CDU, which can be considered right wing, 14 % have extreme right views. I'm pretty sure similar things could be said about other armies in Europe.

Since the American political spectrum is skewed so far to the right, that it's ridiculous it might be true that American soldiers have views more representative of the population.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#162

Post by 82xx »

PeterisP wrote: post #130
yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

War is horrible and thus starting a war should be avoidable at all costs - it should be a last resort, but this recommendation applies to the politicians and country leaders. For the trooper, it's entirely differnent - assuming that a war exists already, the choice is about which bodies get sent there, and not wasting your training is a reasonable argument. Once a war exists, joining it usually contributes to it's en…

If no one joined then the war would end much more quickly.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#163

Post by saiya-jin »

BuckRogers wrote: post #93
waps wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. You seem to be saying that one cannot avoid every fight (the Chinese stuff in your post) and that one can avoid every fight ("There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear.") This seems to be a bit contradictory. I'm also curious how it meshes with your personal experience.

I tried to clear that up with this, "Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown." I was trying to convey that there is always an alternative unless it's out of self-defense. If the Chinese were in the US today, I'm not sure we'd have much choice. I'm also not sure the people of the mideast have much choice either. Does anyone seriously expect them to embrace our "help"? It's asinine and…

briliantly put in many ways... one could possibly say an analogy for Iraq - some friend of a friend of a friend overheard something noone else believed - that a guy (let's say convicted felon who served his sentence) in next town has a gun in his basement. no idea why, but imagine you feel the urge to dispose of this "threat", maybe because you're a military nutjob, or anything else. it doesn't matter that many guys in his neighbourhood have the same weapon, and many more.

you try to rally your neighbours and friends to have a raid group. unsurprisingly, your german and french friends are against armed storming of someone else house based just on some overheard rumours (), rest is at least hesitant. you say something along "fk you puies" and storm the house with only friend you are left with - that british fella that you have so much in common with. Long story short, you kill the guy unarmed, don't find any weapon whatsoever and burn his house in the process to ashes. After that you refuse to move from his property, stating you need to keep that neighbourhood protected and invite other armed people to join you.

Sorry if I missed some important stuff, and of course this describes only beginning, with all the current mess being result of these (probably intentional) mistakes. If anyone still thinks US is viewed anywhere as a good guy in this war, then NO - there are only bad guys. Personally, ISIS would still have to work hard to match all US-directly-caused civilian casualities in Iraq. It doesn't matter much if someone is beheaded, blown to pieces or machinegunned while going to work, does it...

() - that Bush speech in UN was really horrible, I recall it quite well, saying to myself - and they want to screw up another nation completely based on THAT???

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#164

Post by lentil_soup »

serge2k wrote: post #160
lentil_soup wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The recent Philippines disaster saw HMS Illustrious deliver all the spare rice in Singapore in a short space of time along with a number of helicopters as well as fit, motivated, organised and well led teams to assist in disaster relief." Then you can have the same efficient result with a non-military organization. What's so special about them having guns?

The need/want of the US to have their guns all over the planet means they often have people in a position to help. If they weren't out there defending people/enforcing US interests then they wouldn't be there at all.

Sure, but then it's a bad argument as defense of the military. Their purpose is not to help in disasters, that they happen to be there is secondary.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#165

Post by 67726e »

_delirium wrote: post #67
67726e wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We certainly have a time difference, I was born in '93, so we all came of age throughout the war, and by the time we graduated (2011) and could enlist, the war had raged and begun to wane. The cards had fallen, and anyone with half a brain could look at the facts for what had happened. My view of the US, by that point, had morphed from that of a patriot to that of a dissident. Given the NSA revelations, I could almos…

That makes sense. I think in the '90s there was more of a difference in how people thought of "the military" overall, vs. the special forces specifically, which is where you'd get the dropping-in-somewhere-from-a-helicopter-and-shooting type action. The special forces were definitely a fascination for many, but I think more of some kind of theoretical fascination. I'm not sure I know anyone who seriously pursued it,…

I think that hits the nail pretty well. The handful of older adults I know who went into the service did it for those exact reasons, wanted to fly, wanted to go to college on the GI bill, wanted to become a surgeon but couldn't afford medical school, etc. I think part of this modern situation, is that the armed services have done an amazing PR job in the past decade and a half. We've gone from the notion of a citizen soldier to this warrior notion. You're no longer doing your duty, conscripted and fighting an evil empire. You're joining up to be a warrior!

Something that just came into my head is that, out of my male friends, all but a two went Army/Marines with one going Air Force and the other going Navy, and my male friend who went Navy wanted to be (and is) a dental tech. A cursory check of Facebook confirms this, and interestingly, of the women I know from school who went into the service, all but one went Navy (the odd woman out went Marines). I think that notion of "Adult Scouts" and a stepping stone still applies to the Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force to large part, no airmen or sailor is doing night raids in an Afghan village, you might get someone aiming for a Corpsman or a forward observer, and of course SEALs or Pararescue, but those are a small part of those branches.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#166

Post by saiya-jin »

67726e wrote: post #44
niels_olson wrote: post #3

Having been in for 20 years now, I definitely agree with Junger, there is an innate element in young men trying to prove themselves. I think YCombinator appeals to a similar desire. I was performing an autopsy yesterday when the med student, the photographer, and the assistant started talking about guns. Their gusto was impressive. I felt no need to partake, but I think that was attributable, at least in part, to the…

Perhaps, but I really don't know if that would solve it either. I've done rather well thus far in my career, and continue to do so. Yet something feels missing, I don't know what, but I still have some recurring desire to enlist. That the whole software thing - and this is something I've been doing since a very young age - is not enough. That I should be doing something _more_.

Try rock climbing/mountaineering. Being in the wall few hundred meters above the ground, your mind doesn't care if there is securing rope tying you to last quickdraw or not. You will be scared. You will be bathing in adrenaline. You will have to muster all your courage to move forward, to climb higher, to reach the top. Again and again.

You'll get all the excitement army guys get in deployment, without screwing you up and becoming permanent mental cripple. In fact, it will make you a better person in many many ways. Guaranteed.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#167

Post by arethuza »

orbifold wrote: post #90
didibus wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The army is the reason young men go to war. That's what I infer from your comment at least. What other institution is so organized, so marketed, so respected, as the army? What other institution will take you in and dedicate the same level of attention and money in guiding you? What other institution does all the above with as low of a barrier to entry? To some extent, the army provides the same benefit as a cult. Th…

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

I wouldn't say that about the UK - perhaps because military leadership has traditionally been so closely aligned with our social classes (i.e. if you are posh and go to a public school then you are officer material).

A lot of private (what we call "public") schools have Army/Air-Force cadet groups which are supported by the real armed forces and often have ex-forces staff working in the school.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#168

Post by saiya-jin »

douche wrote: post #149
jhallenworld wrote: post #33

Related question: is there an elite conspiracy to keep the USA at war? "There has been no decade in which the USA has not been at war." http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/we-re-at-war-and-we-have-be...

Was there a Papist plot to keep Europe at war? Between the establishment of the papacy in Rome and the downfall of Napoleon, there had been no decade that Europe was not at war.

you're probably american, so you're forgiven for this ignorance, but europe consists of +-50 sovereign states. Even now with EU (that doesn't contain many states), declaring a war is always matter of a given nation.

Apples to ants...

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#169

Post by hueving »

BuckRogers wrote: post #93
waps wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. You seem to be saying that one cannot avoid every fight (the Chinese stuff in your post) and that one can avoid every fight ("There are -always- alternatives even if the argument coming from the profiting parties don't frame it in such a way that this is clear.") This seems to be a bit contradictory. I'm also curious how it meshes with your personal experience.

I tried to clear that up with this, "Short of having foreign troops as we have them overseas, in your hometown." I was trying to convey that there is always an alternative unless it's out of self-defense. If the Chinese were in the US today, I'm not sure we'd have much choice. I'm also not sure the people of the mideast have much choice either. Does anyone seriously expect them to embrace our "help"? It's asinine and…

>It meshes with my personal experiences quite well. Unless someone takes a swing at me, I don't fight. I get by well with this principle.

Oh? And what would you do if you came across someone beating a child to death? Just watch and wait for him/her to take a swing at you before intervening?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#170

Post by TeMPOraL »

donny554 wrote: post #159
orbifold wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily in most other developed western countries it carries no prestige to be part of the army outside of certain low income / right wing / uneducated circles. To the point where the majority of university students would never consider dating someone who went to the army. While there was still conscription, if you didn't chose to do alternative civil service, you were in the minority and considered suspect.

Saying this applies to most developed countries is a big claim. My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls. Obviously your own experience differs, but you must be careful in applying that to an entire continent. Not to mention the absurdity of university students looking down on soldiers, many (almost all in my unit) of whom will…

> My own personal experience in the few European countries is the opposite, that being in the military was great for picking up girls.

As the popular proverb in Poland goes, "za mundurem panny sznurem" - "girls queue up behind an uniform[ed guy; follow him]".

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