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Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

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Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#261

Post by general_failure »

Frondo wrote: post #242
general_failure wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is terrifying. You cannot say anything without being called out with this sort of terrible attitude.

Of course you can. Language is intensely rich, there's such a tiny subset of stuff that we're now starting to recognize rubs people the wrong way/excludes people/makes us sound like cavemen. I don't at all get what benefit there is to being able to say "manly-man programming," either from a communication or a social standpoint. I don't get what's lost when we replace "manly-man programming" with anything less stupid…

What's gained is language flair and color. You may not see it but I do.

This is like any other literature. Don't force the world into newspeak.

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#262

Post by qq66 »

troymc wrote: post #104

There is something I don't understand; maybe someone here can explain: Sound travels at about 340 m/s (in a typical room). That means it travels about 3.4 metres in 10 milliseconds. Therefore another way to get a 10 millisecond problem is to stand 3.4 metres from the orchestra. Most people sit farther than 3.4 metres from the orchestra, yet they don't complain about a lag between when the violin bow moves and the sou…

If you're way in the back in a big concert hall, you can definitely notice the lag, but it's not a big deal. The problem would be if different instruments reach your ears at different times, and since the closest seat is still a considerable distance from the audience, you're not going to be hearing sounds more than about ~20ms apart. The reverb of the hall also mushes everything together.

The problem you describe is a very real problem, however, for the musicians themselves. If you're sitting in a big orchestra and you try to index your playing off someone sitting on the other end of the orchestra, you will not be in time. That's why there's a conductor, so that the orchestra can be synchronized at the speed of light rather than of sound.

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#263

Post by e12e »

ohitsdom wrote: post #93
masklinn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title isn't clear but (sub-) 10ms is the target . The "problem" part is that Android devices generally don't come close, the lowest-latency Android device on the market today (barring Samsung's custom "Professional Audio SDK") has a 35ms roundtrip latency (ADC -> DAC), and many devices are way beyond 100ms ( http://superpowered.com/latency/ )

This makes more sense. 100ms and over sounds to me like a huge problem, while 10ms does not.

I came across this (which is a commercial so exaggerates the lag) -- but still quite hilarious (Swedish audio):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#264

Post by general_failure »

bjt wrote: post #254
Frondo wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can. Language is intensely rich, there's such a tiny subset of stuff that we're now starting to recognize rubs people the wrong way/excludes people/makes us sound like cavemen. I don't at all get what benefit there is to being able to say "manly-man programming," either from a communication or a social standpoint. I don't get what's lost when we replace "manly-man programming" with anything less stupid…

s/cavemen/cavepeople/

We should apply parent's logic here :)

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#265

Post by qq66 »

mianos wrote: post #7

Does anyone actually believe the reason " the Google Play store, the Music category is not even a top five revenue producing app category." is due to audio latency? I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is a lot of audio latency (no worse than Windows 8) but maybe it's time to explain cause vs correlation? Interesting article all the same.

The difference between the music app business on Android and iOS is a complex one that really encapsulates the meaning of a "brand."

Apple has a long history of market success with creative professionals, so to make sure that they retain this success, they focus heavily on the product issues that would be relevant to creative professionals. These creative pros are who the advanced amateurs look up to, so when the creative pros, let's say Ryan Lewis, are all using Macs and iOS, the amateurs do too... Apple's success in these markets is a long history of positive feedback between engineering, marketing, and branding.

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#266

Post by szantog »

nsajko wrote: post #79

What downsides would there be to just halving the period size?

Android's audio stack is "pushing" audio down to the audio driver, with the audio threads sleeping between every push. In other words, the audio driver's interrupts are not scheduling the actions. Having smaller period sizes increases the risk of not "guessing" the sleep scheduling right, resulting in many audio dropouts.

Using a "pull" method is required for low latency audio, where the audio driver's interrupts are scheduling when audio is passed to and pulled from applications.

Another downside of halving the period size is CPU load/battery drain. There are simply too many layers in Android's audio stack, and it has quite a few unoptimised code as well (such as converting between audio sample formats with plain C code).

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#267

Post by gone35 »

Frondo wrote: post #243
rcr wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really be serious.

Sure he is. I for one look forward to when we drop these asinine phrases like "manly-man" from casual conversation and start speaking with a better, broader, more meaningful, and richer kind of vocabulary.

Sure he is.

Indeed. I'm glad at least one person got my point.

(A minor nitpick, tho: for the record I happen to have been born with two X chromosomes. Good guess though; especially on HN threads like these.)

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#268

Post by evincarofautumn »

Frondo wrote: post #246
ra1n85 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one look forward to when language can be used in a way that the original author sees fit and without having to pander to every gentle sensitivity or taste.

I don't know how the original author intended it, except that they seem to equate programming ability with masculinity. If that's what they meant, that's a pretty retrograde attitude. If that isn't what they meant, maybe it's time to update their vocabulary.

We should be considerate in how we listen as well as how we speak. It does no good to speak insensitively, nor to listen oversensitively. Communication is a two-way street.

When I feel offended, I treat it as an opportunity to learn about a different viewpoint. Sometimes it makes me change my mind. It always gives me a better understanding of people.

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#269

Post by Frondo »

kabdib wrote: post #249
gone35 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A little manly-man programming from the wrist and we move on to real problems." See... it's the little things like this. I am pretty sure that was not your intention, but please do know that turns of phrases like that hurt a little, and exclude a little. To see what I mean, s/man/jew/ or s/man/white/ or some other category and see how it reads.

Well, if I wanted to offend, I would have. It is frankly no challenge to deliberately say something un-PC and widely offensive. It is also apparently little more challenging to utter something more subtle and more narrowly offensive. I look at "manly man" depictions of, well, manly men (for instance, watch Kevin Kline's performance in A Fish Called Wanda ) as parody. Monty Python did it. Mark Twain probably did it. D…

"So, in my writing (and I've done a bit of it; look at my profile and my blog) I tend not to give a flying unmentionable about who I piss off."

Then I'm sure you're also OK with an ever-shrinking subset of the world being willing to put up with that tone.

It all works out, I suppose.

Re: Android’s 10 Millisecond Problem explained

#270

Post by Frondo »

gone35 wrote: post #267
Frondo wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure he is. I for one look forward to when we drop these asinine phrases like "manly-man" from casual conversation and start speaking with a better, broader, more meaningful, and richer kind of vocabulary.

Sure he is. Indeed. I'm glad at least one person got my point. (A minor nitpick, tho: for the record I happen to have been born with two X chromosomes. Good guess though; especially on HN threads like these.)

Sorry! My bad, thanks for pointing out my assumption.
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