Why Young Men Go to War • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#51

Post by griffinmahon » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

"Callous" is probably an imprecise word choice for the sentiment you're trying to communicate. And anyway it's not necessarily immoral to go to war for this reason depending on how you perform the calculus, e.g., depending on how much government money went into training and considering most soldiers don't kill others, it might be morally permissible.

I also doubt that the commenter would wholly support going to war or that he would seriously disagree with any of the assertions in "your second paragraph". But life is hard, and people have to try to achieve their goals and form a coherent narrative out of things. You might do better to reconcile a critique of the military with the fact that people in the military are not all bad or in the wrong.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#52

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

[deleted]

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#53

Post by dba7dba » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:44 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

A quote from "This Kind of War: The Classic Korean War History"

"The single greatest weakness of a free people is always their moral doubts."

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#54

Post by Symmetry » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #23

coolsunglasses wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is because of old men. This is a typical modernist redaction of the will to violence that is common to young men. Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it. This is because we think we can mutate the human condition into something better.

Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it. Any examples? Blood sport and dueling comes to mind, though I am skeptical of their desirability. Perhaps the latter might be reinstated as a voluntary contract for consenting adults, but it's treading a fine line.

Or if you go back further raiding, blood feuds, and that sort of thing. The formation of states with their monopolies on violence was a huge change in the human condition. We certainly gave up something fundamental to the human condition when we decided that personal vengeance was anathema. But still, I think it was a good trade.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#55

Post by bootload » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #3

Having been in for 20 years now, I definitely agree with Junger, there is an innate element in young men trying to prove themselves. I think YCombinator appeals to a similar desire. I was performing an autopsy yesterday when the med student, the photographer, and the assistant started talking about guns. Their gusto was impressive. I felt no need to partake, but I think that was attributable, at least in part, to the…

"there is an innate element in young men trying to prove themselves. I think YCombinator appeals to a similar desire."

being young, male and bottom of the totem-pole, a place where you are valued, relied on, protect and protect others why wouldn't a kid see this as a great option. Junger makes the point a number of times that as a 17-26y/o you are 6 times more likely to be killed than F or other M in different age groups. You are physically safer in the services.

"Alternate rites of passage, I would think. We need more of those."

Second that. What ROPs will youngsters choose without some element of danger though, to prove themselves? I'm convinced the danger element/risk seeking and success is bound tightly with ROP. That was my youth, though I'd been well trained in calculated risk.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#56

Post by bootload » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

67726e wrote: post #39

20kleagues wrote: post #36

It is funny how the whole argument of masculinity is based on the American experience. A good control study would be somewhere where male rites of passage still exist, but men also still go to war (most conservative Asian societies for example).

Perhaps that is mostly because Junger's documentaries are all around American troops. I also highly recommend Restrepo, and the follow up, Korengal.

"I also highly recommend Restrepo, and the follow up, Korengal."

and, "The Last Patrol" ~ https://youtu.be/KwOAVSprv64

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#57

Post by lukifer » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

AYBABTME wrote: post #49

yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

Why is it callous? Why get in the army in the first place, if not to do the work of the army? I'd be hypocritical to join the army with the desire to then avoid operations. I can understand that people be against war. I don't like violence. I don't encourage violence and certainly do not enjoy wars. But wars exist and as a citizen, you can decide to wish that war magically weren't a thing, or do something about their…

As Sun Tzu said, the greatest warrior is the one who need never fight. While this can be interpreted as a pacifist/moral sentiment, it is really deeply practical: fighting incurs risks and resources, even if victorious. The most effective victories come from a credible deterrent which is never actually used. So I don't think your training would have been wasted by not seeing combat, any more than a policeman's weapon is wasted even if it is never fired.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#58

Post by vezzy-fnord » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:53 AM UTC

coolsunglasses wrote: post #47

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it. Any examples? Blood sport and dueling comes to mind, though I am skeptical of their desirability. Perhaps the latter might be reinstated as a voluntary contract for consenting adults, but it's treading a fine line.

Consider the cultural norms of old European sword nobility. Soldiers, particularly those that saw combat, aren't treated at all in the same way today as they were 100, 500, 1000 years ago. Pre-axial religions were more to my point than axial-age, universalizing faiths like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam. For example, human and animal sacrifice. A different example not centered on violence: carnival. >though I am skept…

I'd wager that there was also a higher per capita distribution of soldiers back then. That there was a consistent ethos as to their treatment is dubious.

It's interesting you mention a century ago. Here is a prime example of the good treatment soldiers received back then, on top of the involuntary experimentation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

Human sacrifice certainly might be an ideal arrangement. Though I'm not sure which meaning of ideal - one of optimal efficiency, or one of opposition to reality. If young men really are so bloodthirsty and violent and this should be celebrated, voluntary blood sport is probably the best bet.

Ultimately, avoidance of gratuitous death is a good thing.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#59

Post by mreiland » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:55 AM UTC

67726e wrote: post #37

_delirium wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's accurate, if we're discussing what actually motivates military deployments. There are exceptions, but in most wars the enlisted men themselves have not been the ones chomping at the bit to be sent to war. Rather, they were sent by older men serving in government, who did not themselves participate in the fighting, often over considerable dissent from the rank and file. In some cases, such as the…

I don't think that's an entirely accurate depiction, given the article. I believe this is strictly in a modern context, and given that every soldier, sailor, Marine, and airman is a volunteer, it misses the point. We can point at Cheney and Rumsfeld and Halliburton, but as the article states, this robs every service member of his or her agency. The reason every one of my friends from high school went to war is becaus…

> The reason every one of my friends from high school went to war is because they wanted to.

"wanted to"

The thing about being young is that your perspective is fairly narrow. It takes time and experience for your perspective to broaden. I can tell you that my perspective on the military and its recruitment of young adults has definitely changed over the years.

While it is ultimately their choice, I think it's dishonest to act as if we as a nation don't have recruitment officers inside many high schools in this country for the sole purpose of recruiting these young men and women who don't have the breadth of perspective to really make an informed decision.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#60

Post by bootload » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:55 AM UTC

rob_lh wrote: post #46

67726e wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that is mostly because Junger's documentaries are all around American troops. I also highly recommend Restrepo, and the follow up, Korengal.

Yeah, the whole article, subject matter, and journey he explores is American. It's investigative at its best in that it explores why people make these decisions, and their decisions are strongly rooted in the ever-changing American society. Tangentially, I might be alone in this, but I consider great journalism to be like great science - it's able to discern the fundamental mechanics of an issue, but they're also not…

"Yeah, the whole article, subject matter, and journey he explores is American."

and yet it's universal. By training Junger is a anthropologist and if you read "War" you'll see the stories and themes he explains can be applied equally from Roman to the modern warrior.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/WAR-Sebastian-Junger/dp/B0085RZFDC