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Why Young Men Go to War

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Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#31

Post by c3o »

meric wrote: post #10
kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

I think he is alluding to the military forced by the left wing to attempt to have equal number of both sexes in every part of the military, when as a result of evolution, males are physically stronger and will be more suitable for some roles in the military than females and should therefore form the majority in some roles, and in others where only the strongest are selected, all of the roles, because the strongest ma…

Do you have a link for "the left wing" demanding a 50% gender quota in the military?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#32

Post by wyager »

Well, 66% of the men in WW2 and 38% of those deployed to Vietnam went to war because the government forced them into the military under threat of imprisonment.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#34

Post by Crito »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #24
blfr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rejection is not in not wanting men to go to war, or in favouring any particular social order, but in denying innate sex differences. According to Junger, these theories are strongly rooted in academia, and particularly the social sciences. “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all…

> “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all gender differences are cultural.” You would think that, no matter what your goals for the roles of gender (or sex) in society are, you would achieve these goals best by deliberately seeking out and investigating the properties of the underlyi…

> "You would think that, no matter what your goals for the roles of gender (or sex) in society are, you would achieve these goals best by deliberately seeking out and investigating the properties of the underlying biology (and culture) with the utmost of academic and intellectual integrity, and only afterwards pushing for the policies you prefer to realize that world."

That is how it is supposed to work, but reality is never so clean.

One of the best modern examples of doing it backwards (starting with a conclusion, and then working backwards from there), is so called "intelligent design"/"creation science". Many different groups and movements are guilty of it, but the ID scene is relatively unique in the lengths that they went to present themselves as legitimate scientists. See: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School...) Those nutjobs insisted that they were real scientists, despite the glaring contradictions with their nonsense and the scientific method.

His comparison was rather apt.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#35

Post by AYBABTME »

jhallenworld wrote: post #22
AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

How did you have a choice about being deployed?

I volunteered.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#36

Post by 20kleagues »

It is funny how the whole argument of masculinity is based on the American experience. A good control study would be somewhere where male rites of passage still exist, but men also still go to war (most conservative Asian societies for example).

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#37

Post by 67726e »

_delirium wrote: post #11
coolsunglasses wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is because of old men. This is a typical modernist redaction of the will to violence that is common to young men. Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it. This is because we think we can mutate the human condition into something better.

I don't think that's accurate, if we're discussing what actually motivates military deployments. There are exceptions, but in most wars the enlisted men themselves have not been the ones chomping at the bit to be sent to war. Rather, they were sent by older men serving in government, who did not themselves participate in the fighting, often over considerable dissent from the rank and file. In some cases, such as the…

I don't think that's an entirely accurate depiction, given the article. I believe this is strictly in a modern context, and given that every soldier, sailor, Marine, and airman is a volunteer, it misses the point. We can point at Cheney and Rumsfeld and Halliburton, but as the article states, this robs every service member of his or her agency.

The reason every one of my friends from high school went to war is because they wanted to. Some wanted to serve their country, defend it's freedoms. Some wanted to spill blood. I very nearly went down that path myself, and some nights I wonder why I didn't. Sometimes I think it's not too late. Perhaps they were hypnotized and lack free will, maybe our NJROTC instructors indoctrinated them in a way that didn't have an affect on me. Why is it so pervasive?

I'm young, make a killing writing software - something I've loved doing since a young age - and yet I can't help but think I should enlist (I simply lack the desire to complete my degree, so getting a commission is not a reality). I lust for the thought of besting other young men, I want to win, I want to be the one standing when the dust settles. Maybe it will sate that appetite, maybe it will give me some appreciation for the world that I lack. Who is to say? I don't feel the desire to go out and slay my fellow man, except in that one specific context.

I shared the article because it rang very close the home, and I suspect it would for each and every one of my friends.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#38

Post by csours »

blfr wrote: post #6
kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

The rejection is not in not wanting men to go to war, or in favouring any particular social order, but in denying innate sex differences. According to Junger, these theories are strongly rooted in academia, and particularly the social sciences. “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all…

I have a (lefty) colleague who sincerely believes that testosterone does not significantly affect personality[0].

I understand that human history has been overwhelmingly male dominated, and that this has undesirable consequences and side effects. I think these effects and ideas should be counteracted "with prejudice"[1] to use a policing term.

I don't think counteracting the horrible facts of the past should include re-writing scientific facts we now know.

0. Perhaps it is prejudice and incorrect teaching that leads me to think that testosterone has effects on personality, if so, please correct me.

1. I mean that women and men (and others) should be considered morally, politically, socially, and economically equal (and probably some others); any argument to the contrary can be discounted immediately.

I personally think that men and women (and others) are "not the same" emotionally or physically, but that these differences are A GOOD THING.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#39

Post by 67726e »

20kleagues wrote: post #36

It is funny how the whole argument of masculinity is based on the American experience. A good control study would be somewhere where male rites of passage still exist, but men also still go to war (most conservative Asian societies for example).

Perhaps that is mostly because Junger's documentaries are all around American troops. I also highly recommend Restrepo, and the follow up, Korengal.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#40

Post by kijin »

beeworker wrote: post #20
kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

I agree we should be able to give evolution the middle finger. But I disagree we can do so in any effective way in the timespan of 5 years, unless we somehow hit the Singularity by then. You overestimate man's intelligence and strength of will. I mean in general, let alone people with IQs in the 80s. Until we actually have either the knowledge and technology to do genetic engineering or mind uploading so that we can…

Good points, but who said it had to be done in 5 years?

I was thinking more like 50 years, or maybe even 250 years. Without some sort of eugenics or singularity as you said, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to work around a psychological trait that has been ingrained in us for thousands of years. This is exactly the kind of progress that takes place most effectively at funerals.

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