Why Young Men Go to War • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#21

Post by c3o » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

"Having no political agenda" often turns out to mean agreement with/uncritical acceptance of the dominant political agenda. The status quo is perceived as a natural order or default state of the world, instead of the result of the current distribution of influence and the ideology of those in power. Thus proclaiming "neutrality" is often in fact a statement of conservativism / siding with the currently privileged / rejecting any motive for progress. If you (fail to) calibrate your world view like that, criticizing the progressive left or at least equating the left and the right-of-what's-mainstream as equally unnecessary/hysterical/dismissable "extremes" follows.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#22

Post by jhallenworld » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

How did you have a choice about being deployed?

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#23

Post by vezzy-fnord » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:16 AM UTC

coolsunglasses wrote: post #7

thomasjames wrote: post #5

They join the military for a variety of reasons, which may or may not have involved any feelings about any conflict at hand much less the media. The reason they go to war, however, is because of old men.

>is because of old men. This is a typical modernist redaction of the will to violence that is common to young men. Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it. This is because we think we can mutate the human condition into something better.

Past societies found ways to incorporate, normalize, redirect, celebrate that will - now we pathologize it.

Any examples? Blood sport and dueling comes to mind, though I am skeptical of their desirability. Perhaps the latter might be reinstated as a voluntary contract for consenting adults, but it's treading a fine line.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#24

Post by fennecfoxen » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

blfr wrote: post #6

kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

The rejection is not in not wanting men to go to war, or in favouring any particular social order, but in denying innate sex differences. According to Junger, these theories are strongly rooted in academia, and particularly the social sciences. “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all…

> “I have friends who are anthropologists and primatologists and evolutionary psychologists … [who are under] an enormous amount of pressure to generate data that shows that all gender differences are cultural.”

You would think that, no matter what your goals for the roles of gender (or sex) in society are, you would achieve these goals best by deliberately seeking out and investigating the properties of the underlying biology (and culture) with the utmost of academic and intellectual integrity, and only afterwards pushing for the policies you prefer to realize that world. Then you would have the advantage of using a position of Enlightenment, instead of Ignorance.

Maybe in a few more generations when people look back at us the way we look back on the Victorian era.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#25

Post by Crito » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

meric wrote: post #10

kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

I think he is alluding to the military forced by the left wing to attempt to have equal number of both sexes in every part of the military, when as a result of evolution, males are physically stronger and will be more suitable for some roles in the military than females and should therefore form the majority in some roles, and in others where only the strongest are selected, all of the roles, because the strongest ma…

Yeah, I took it as a very topical jab. That stuff has been in the news a lot recently.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#26

Post by bootload » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

"Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it."

Don't waste good.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#27

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:18 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #17

ekianjo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why train so hard just to stay home. Yeah, better use those muscles and brains to kill people across borders. That's the spirit!

[deleted]

No, nobody has to go, there's no actual need for war unless actual soldiers come marching on your homes. Which has like NEVER happened in the US (and who would dare anyway!). And it's not like US Allies are in deep danger either. Most of the current wars are of the "preventive" nonsense type.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#28

Post by rob_lh » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:18 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

AYBABTME wrote: post #4

I went in the army because at the time, I had big dreams and no clear path to them. I thought joining the army and doing a hard training would teach me something about achieving goals. I went to war because I was in the army and wondered what was the point of being in the army if you don't go to war. After doing my training, deploying in Afghanistan was the logical follow up. Why train so hard just to stay home. Afte…

Your second paragraph seems callous to me. Going to war for the sake of not wasting one's hard training, so to speak, is not moral. At least as I look at it. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes it is justifiable and necessary. War should be a last resort. I wish society had alternate means of accomplishing your first paragraph without resort to the second.

It could be a callous viewpoint, but intent certainly matters. Just going to war to use your training is wholly callous.

But take any of the recent genocides (Rwanda) or even ISIS - innocent people are unquestionably being killed. A soldier hears about this in the news, prepares every day to stop large forces like that, and instead is being asked to stand down. The media obviously plays a large role in shaping the perspective of horrors being done in the world, and I wouldn't argue war is the solution to all but a few problems. However, it is fairly straightforward and morally defensible that innocent people would be alive if other people were killed, and soldiers are prepared and ready to kill.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#29

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:19 AM UTC

thomasjames wrote: post #5

They join the military for a variety of reasons, which may or may not have involved any feelings about any conflict at hand much less the media. The reason they go to war, however, is because of old men.

> because of old men

Erm, Because of old, blood-thirsty politicians. Do not basket all peace-loving old men along with them, please.

Re: Why Young Men Go to War

#30

Post by meric » Fri, Apr 17, 2015, 1:19 AM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #16

kijin wrote: post #2

> "The male response to war is an evolutionary adaptation that clearly works for our species." > "It's a left-wing version of the Christian right rejecting the theory of evolution," he says. "I mean the far left is also now rejecting the theory of evolution, which is just insane." The left wing, whatever it's worth, is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. Just because men are evolutionarily predisposed to…

> it is certainly not rejecting the theory of evolution. [...] Evolution only shows us what is. [...] Meanwhile, it's our job to figure out what ought to be I'd take this a step farther, and argue that the author's "doing otherwise is rejecting evolution" framing is actually a rather common "Christian right" paradigm. There's a biblical mindset which constantly intermingles "The revelation is truthful" with "The reve…

What about the people who have the mindset where "The thing is not desirable" means they must deny at all costs "The thing is truth", and lose their empathy as a result? If you can't see through the people' perspective and find out what they want, how will you persuade them not to do what you don't want them to do? YC's motto is "Make something people want" after all.[1] The war reporter has traveled into a war, mingled with soldiers, and came back to share his experience, to tell us what is. And here you accuse, without having met him, of having a "fundamentally "Christian right" paradigm.". If you were more accepting of the truth of his experience, you'd be explaining what things men could do instead to differentiate themselves from women and achieve the manhood they so desire, instead of going to war.

[1] http://paulgraham.com/good.html