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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#61

Post by stephendedalus »

_pmf_ wrote: post #6
rkischuk wrote: post #3

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns. As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes…

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians. I agree. Bikes as road vehicles is a dangerous anachronism. Overtaking bikes is the most unpleasant exercise for me as a driver. Although, given the state of roads vs. the state of sidewalks, I understand why they choose the road.

The other reason cyclists choose the road is because sidewalks are frequently filled with turn-ins and turn-outs. So riding on a sidewalk, even if there were no pedestrians, would be an act of putting yourself in exactly the place motorists rush to get to/from most frequently.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#62

Post by gorekee »

Nrsolis wrote: post #39
jinushaun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic law…

> If cyclists would simply follow the traffic laws that already exist

Yes, but bicycles are no cars. So the city need also to come up with bike lanes and adequate regulations. It is too easy to blame the participant which has no real place in traffic.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#63

Post by birken »

jinushaun wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority.

And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is the vehicle. And guess what happens when a vehicle is ruled at fault and kills a cyclist? Nothing [2]:

> Unfortunately, the lack of charges in this tragic case is par for the course in our justice system which continually fails to prosecute traffic cases as the crimes that they are. Four people were killed while biking in San Francisco last year, and no charges were filed against the drivers in any of these cases.

The myth that all cyclists are irresponsible and reckless is untrue and needs to die. Most cyclists are drivers and thus can emphasize with drivers and understand and predict what they are doing. However, most drivers are not cyclists, and often think a cyclist is doing something wrong when they are not. Or maybe they only notice when cyclists are doing something bad and their selective memory is reinforced. The point is, most drivers are good and most cyclists are good. A little more empathy on both sides would go a long way towards improving the situation, and untrue claims like "90% of the time the cyclist is at fault" is not helping.

1: https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-kil...

2: https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-...

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#64

Post by davidw »

baddox wrote: post #49

I almost completely agree with the author's policy recommendations and criticisms of US car culture, but I find many of his arguments and implications to be fairly troubling. > We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers are allowed unlimited “oopsies”) Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposefu…

> Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe.

As someone who has ridden many miles in the US (and many kilometers in Italy), I don't find it such a stretch. There are a lot of pissed-off drivers. Everyone who has ridden a bike enough has stories of being harassed for no reason. Once, for instance, I was riding with a few friends, single-file, lined up as close as we could get to the right side of the straight road, and this guy buzzes us with inches to spare, and no oncoming traffic in the other lane. If he'd "miscalculated" he could have easily injured or killed us.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#65

Post by cwp »

cperciva wrote: post #26

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

By driving more slowly, under street lights, in a separate lane.

You're right. Just saying "drivers should be more careful!" isn't going to have any effect. We need to change transportation infrastructure to be safer for non-automobile traffic.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#66

Post by aidenn0 »

oldmanjay wrote: post #4

Also kids shouldn't have to look before crossing the street. Just make drivers not hit kids. Any other position is victim-blaming.

That's actually the rule in the US, if they cross at any place where it is legal to cross.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#67

Post by bontoJR »

I guess the right stays in the middle. We have to make drivers more responsible with cyclists, but on the other hand cyclists have to play following rules. I don't think is always drivers' fault or vice-versa, we should evaluate case by case, but admit that sometimes, some cyclists, are even more dangerous than cars for pedestrians, is not crazy. I saw bike-couriers in London, NY and even here in ZH completely ignoring signals, jumping on sidewalks, avoiding kids with emergency maneuvers. I am not pro-drivers or pro-cyclists, but we have to find the right balance to share streets.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#68

Post by davidw »

PebblesHD wrote: post #2

Whilst I agree with the concept that motorists are responsible for their own behaviour on the road and should not endanger other travellers, I believe that on a road where the speed limit is 55mph, or realistically any speed, that vehicles using that roadway should be able to maintain a safe and non-obstructive speed on said roadways. If your vehicle cannot maintain such a speed, it shouldnt be on a road with other v…

> shouldnt be on a road

This culture of "THE ROAD IS MINE, GET OUT OF MY WAY" is part of what leads to dead cyclists.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#69

Post by bsder »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

You want to be careful with these kinds of burden of proof chains.

For example, a bicycle is moving much faster than a person opening a car door. It is clearly the fault of the bicycle if he runs into it.

Now see the problem?

The reality is that cars and bicycles do not belong on the same roads. Period. Bicycles need bike lanes that are separated from roads.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#70

Post by Svip »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

As a motorist (with the licence to drive a bus) and a cyclist, I must stress that it is incredibly hard to see unlit cyclists at night. Particularly on raining nights it is practically impossible. I don't want to hit a bike, and neither does anyone else. But I think putting a focus on making them more visible is a good thing.

Then again, I live in Denmark, so my views might be a bit skewed.

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