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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#11

Post by micheljansen »

rkischuk wrote: post #3

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns. As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes…

The thing is, they are neither, really.

Bicycles are not comparable to motor vehicles, as they are much slower (50 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h).

Bicycles are also not comparable to pedestrians, as they are much faster (5 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h).

I think it's a mistake to mix traffic that differs in speed by a factor of 3.

As someone who moved from the Netherlands to London, it has taken me years to adjust to absence of real bicycle lanes. They really do seem like the best answer to me.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#12

Post by makeitsuckless »

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you.

Is this insane and unfair? No, it's about the responsibility that comes with driving a big, dangerous hunk of metal amongst unprotected civilians. For a country where most people believe that they can be considered responsible enough to own firearms, that responsibility for something that is potentially equally deadly shouldn't be that big a burden.

The notion that you can legally run down and kill a child on a bicycle just because that child was "wrong" is what's insane.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#13

Post by zhanwei »

oldmanjay wrote: post #4

Also kids shouldn't have to look before crossing the street. Just make drivers not hit kids. Any other position is victim-blaming.

Everyone should be responsible for their personal safety, regardless what everyone else says. But beyond that, i guess this piece is pushing for more responsibility on the motorist end.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#14

Post by mcpherrinm »

PebblesHD wrote: post #2

Whilst I agree with the concept that motorists are responsible for their own behaviour on the road and should not endanger other travellers, I believe that on a road where the speed limit is 55mph, or realistically any speed, that vehicles using that roadway should be able to maintain a safe and non-obstructive speed on said roadways. If your vehicle cannot maintain such a speed, it shouldnt be on a road with other v…

I agree. We should limit urban street speeds to 15mph so cars are not faster than other road users and stop killing people.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#15

Post by brandonmenc »

rkischuk wrote: post #3

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns. As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes…

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

I live in Tempe, AZ near ASU - one of the "most bike friendly" cities in the US, and I can't tell you how many times I've been nearly killed by a bike at full speed weaving in and out of pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk - where it's actually illegal for them to ride.

Bikes do not belong on the sidewalk unless they're moving as slow as a pedestrian, which they never are. They're a hazard.

Many years ago I biked daily on 40 mph city streets, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#16

Post by PebblesHD »

pascalo wrote: post #5
PebblesHD wrote: post #2

Whilst I agree with the concept that motorists are responsible for their own behaviour on the road and should not endanger other travellers, I believe that on a road where the speed limit is 55mph, or realistically any speed, that vehicles using that roadway should be able to maintain a safe and non-obstructive speed on said roadways. If your vehicle cannot maintain such a speed, it shouldnt be on a road with other v…

Got any hard numbers on the menace part, and how it compares to cars as dangerous machines, or is that just anecdotal "evidence"? From what I have seen Sydney has a really obnoxious anti-cycling culture and a dismal level of cycling infrastructure.

I live and work in Sydney and suffer near misses with cyclists on a regular basis, somehow I've never had a problem with a car running through a red light into a packed pedestrian crossing, only cyclists. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that cyclists seem to think road laws don't apply to them.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#17

Post by thaumasiotes »

yitchelle wrote: post #7
rkischuk wrote: post #3

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns. As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes…

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians. Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either. I am a bike commuter as well. I live in West Germany at the moment, but I have also bike commuted to work in Australia. In general, commuting in Germany is a much safer proposition than in Australia. The German drivers seem to be more aware and tolerance to the bike commuters. The b…

> Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either

Maybe you could explain what you're thinking of when you say this? My experience says that pedestrians and bikes are fully compatible; they commonly share sidewalks.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#18

Post by buro9 »

vishaldpatel wrote: post #10

As a cyclist, I am more than happy to see tech that makes me more visible! Why are people up in arms!!? So stupid.

Because it shouldn't be a defence of a driver to say "Sorry mate, I didn't see you". And if that is a defence, then isn't it a form of victim blaming? And what measure would be enough to allow the cyclist to ever prove that the driver must have seen the cyclist? Surely lights would be enough, but enough London cases about cycle deaths would appear to show this isn't enough... cyclists with lights are still killed.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#19

Post by wozniacki »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

Do cyclists in Netherlands skip traffic lights and act like they have a chip on their shoulder?

Well American ones do.

If cyclists are going to share the road, they would see fit have their bicycles registered, pay yearly fees and purchase insurance - both for themselves and the ones they cause harm to [1] - just like motorists do.

Anything else is just favoritism. Won't stand in a court of law, here.

The next time a cyclist injures someone - fatally or not - I can see the auto lobby getting behind efforts to requiring cyclists treated as motorists. I will gladly chip in for that.

[1] http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Bicyclist-sentenced-for-...

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#20

Post by baddox »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

But I feel like the causal direction might be mixed up here. There are two phenomena: Netherlands is safer for cyclists, and Netherlands punishes automobile drivers more for hitting a cyclist. You seem to be implying that the latter causes the former. But it seems to be that both could be caused by a third (potential, I don't actually know) phenomenon: that the ratio of cyclists to automobiles in the Netherlands is much higher than it is in the US. It's easy to see why this third phenomenon could cause the first two.

Now, granted, the author's complaints about US automobile manufacturers' influence on society can still apply, because that can at least partially explain the lower ratio of bicycles to automobiles in the US. There are undoubtedly other contributors to this low ratio, like the significantly higher median income and vastly lower population density of the United States.

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