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Space X CR6 First stage landing

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Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#121
post #56

Elon says it's in slow motion too "High resolution, color corrected, slow motion rocket landing video https://youtu.be/BhMSzC1crr0" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/588463193070022656

How high did it get? Does it burn the whole way down (I assume it uses those little X-wings to 'fly down?) When does it start the descent burn? How fast is it going at this point? How much does it weigh, what sort of forces are we talking about? How hard is landing this puppy in terms of human achievement? Top 10% of tricky things humans have so far achieved? [edit] wouldn't it be easier to hover it a few meters abov…

In general, burning while you descend is a terrible waste of fuel, because you have to generate 1G of acceleration just to keep your speed constant. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_drag.) That's fine if you're not fuel limited (like the grasshopper tests) but if you want to land with minimal use of propellants, you want to use as high acceleration as possible. So the idea is to let the rocket drop freely and then light the engines just early enough that you can stop before hitting the ground.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#122
post #100

It was jaw dropping as-is, but when they finally do stick a landing I imagine the engineers will be running around like little kids screaming with the pure joy and exhilaration of it all. I hope they share the video at mission control as well when the day does come! The sheer drama of how fast it comes down, the awesome power of the Merlin engine just blasting away delta-v... I wonder how many g's it takes on that fi…

A drogue chute strong enough to avoid shredding at these speeds would be too heavy.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#123
post #47

We know it does three separate burns while coming back down (Boostback, entry burn, landing burn). I wonder if each burn starts with the RCS thrusters to turn the stage "nose up". i.e. when it's free falling, does it always roll around and fall nose down, requiring RCS to get it back to nose up? It would be awesome to see footage from the entire return trip. Do they have cameras mounted on stage 1?

From what I've seen there are vanes on the top that guide it down, keeping it upright during reentry and descent. http://images.gizmag.com/inline/crs-5-crash-5.jpg

They're called grid fins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_fin

I believe they are less to "keep it upright", but for better accuracy. The rocket doesn't really having a hard time staying upright because all of the weight is on the bottom where the engines are.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#124

As if this weren't impressive enough already, according to a comment made by Scott Manley[1] it sounds like the final maneuver (where it appears the rocket is making a fairly strong lateral correction) is entirely intentional. Not sure if anyone here can confirm or deny the claim, but apparently the trajectory prior to landing is not supposed to be exactly above the barge as one would expect - I understand it may be…

just the fact they can hit a barge after falling back from space impresses me. I wonder if there are any islands they could use instead, surely they had to have looked for one. Would a stationary oil platform work better?

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#125
post #27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is always some extra fuel and oxidizer, as it is used to slow the vehicle, and is needed until touchdown. If the vehicle were to run out of propellant before landing, it would crash. In addition, the LOX makes any combustion spectacular.

Complete destruction is obviously expensive. Finding a way to prevent an explosion if it falls over after landing seems worthwhile. If it hovered for 5 seconds at .5 meters, for example, could it burn off enough extra fuel?

> Finding a way to prevent an explosion if it falls over after landing seems worthwhile.

They probably are spending more effort into not letting it fall over.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#126

It must be amazing working in a field where failure is almost as exciting as success. What's the main obstacle to slowing down and stabilizing the rocket on its descent to the platform? Is it just a matter of speed or also the shape of the rocket and its center of gravity? Would a set of 3 parachutes might slow it down a little bit or at the very least straighten it before the rockets need to kick in saving some fuel…

SpaceX seems to be able to stabilize fine with RCS and/or their grid fins. The rocket design must be reasonably stable--even tail-first. I don't think incoming velocity is much of a problem. Terminal velocity is gonna be no more than 90 m/s. The engines on that stage are more than capable of slowing it down--and fast. In fact, they're too powerful--it can't hover.

If it's a matter of control then all it needs is just a bit more fine tuning. My money is on success next time they try it.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#128

Is there a reason you couldn't have things on the side of the landing pad that "grab" onto it and secure it? It could be as simple as a huge ring of cable that just closes around the top of the rocket, then pulls it tight on all sides- like the guidelines on a tower to keep it stable. Maybe they don't want to do that because they think they can do it without it?

I was thinking the same, seems that it would be the easiest way to stabilize the rocket. I'm curious what were the reasons for not using this idea - for sure they though about it, but concluded that the current way is better.

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#129

That's tricky stuff. What was the intention behind not doing a water landing, like with the Space Shuttle boosters/tank?

I think the plan is to eventually land it somewhere that it can be checked, refueled, and sent straight back to space.

The barge, I suspect, is simply for safety/liability at this point ;)

(Even if I'm dead wrong, and they want to land it on a barge forever: seawater is some nasty, corrosive shit that I wouldn't want my rocket dunked into! :)

Re: Space X CR6 First stage landing

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching it made me realize I only had an abstract idea of how difficult it was to even attempt this. It's insanely hard, and they're so close!

Yes its a very hard problem but what makes it hard ? Is it engineering of the components, algorithms or expensive tests and economics of it ? Maybe people before Elon Musk were not interested in solving this problem not because its technically hard problem but because their existing business model is much more lucrative.

It's hard not because the engineering is fundamentally difficult (it's challenging but compared to a lot of engineering problems not terribly so) but rather because it's very unforgiving and it takes a great deal of foresight and risk management / business savvy to do what SpaceX has done efficiently and cost effectively.

Look at a couple of the issues they've faced and managed to deftly conquer. Take vehicle design, for example. If you design a purely expendable launcher you tend to want to minimize engine count and concentrate on 2nd stage performance, which leads to a design with an expensive 2nd stage and a cheaper 1st stage with very little throttle authority (due to using a small number of engines). That makes reuse very difficult and not very worthwhile because you'd need to either try to reuse the 2nd stage (a much more challenging task) or to heavily modify the 1st stage, which would then only save the cheapest component of the launcher. So if you want to concentrate on reuse you need a vehicle like the F9, with lots of 1st stage engines, and most of the cost in the 1st stage.

But even then you need to figure out how to run your business. It would be easier to envision the launcher with reuse an integral part of the design from day 1, which would lead you towards testing the reusability aspects of the design prior to the first launch. But that would be tremendously expensive and would make it more difficult to keep a company running while that was going on. SpaceX has been able to provide numerous orbital launches with their rocket and earn a tremendous amount of revenue before it is capable of actually being operated in a reusable fashion. A common engineering dictum is "you ain't gonna need it", to avoid introducing unnecessary design elements that aren't strictly immediately necessary. But without designing the Falcon 9 with reuse in mind from day 1 they would have had a much more difficult time in developing the reusable aspects. Note that SpaceX has made use of hundreds of millions of dollars of flight hardware in their various landing tests, all of which they not only didn't have to pay for out of pocket but actually earned a profit for. That's smart business. Meanwhile, for all of the launches where they haven't attempted landings they've added operational experience and real-world testing of their overall vehicle design and components.

Big, bureaucratic companies that are bringing in billions a year in revenues (like ULA or Arianespace) don't tend to engage in behavior like this, because they don't have the hunger, they don't have the boldness, they don't have the coherent foresight. What SpaceX has done is something that a lot of other companies are going to replicate, likely fairly successfully, once it's been proven. But getting to that point has required not just engineering acumen but enormous risk management skills and business savvy. They'll have a significant market advantage due to their head start for quite some time, and hopefully they will retain enough boldness and savvy to continue moving ahead even as others attempt to catch up.

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