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Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

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Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#111

Post by yellowapple »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #81
hsod wrote: post #77

I'm all for net neutrality, but I wonder how the currently unconnected people who have a chance at free connectivity feel about this. My guess-- limited Internet access is preferable to no Internet access and ideological purity.

Yeah, most of those 620K emails (which isn't a lot at Indian scale) by definition, come from people that already have internet access. Its sad, whatever you think about FB, getting more people access to Wikipedia is clearly a good thing (fixing illiteracy would be better, clearly).

You can do that by distributing offline copies of Wikipedia.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#112

Post by napperjabber »

Mahn wrote: post #105
manish_gill wrote: post #28

After limited protest/outrage in communities like /r/india, the news finally hit big when a comedy group AIB decided to make a video explaining what Net Neutrality is: https://youtu.be/mfY1NKrzqi0 and then it finally hit mainstream media. Amid pressure from everywhere, Flipkart finally withdrew from the Airtel Zero deal which would have been a blow to Net Neutrality in India. Of course, next step was Internet.org and…

> https://i.imgur.com/PAwf6e3.png "Some connectivity is better than no connectivity, hence the violation of NN is justified" Does he really not see the enormous liability that a precedent like this can create?

There is a bigger picture you're not aware of that is in play here.

Zuckerberg is providing free internet to millions.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#113

Post by nileshtrivedi »

lukevdp wrote: post #108

Internet.org is offering a free service to people who would otherwise have no access to the Internet. Net neutrality on a free service in a developing country is an entirely different issue than net neutrality in developed countries with high Internet access rates. I see similarities between this and GMO in developing countries, where rich, well fed people in developed countries oppose gmo in countries that can't fee…

You should read Cleartrip's statement when they exited internet.org today. Especially, this bit: "So while our original intent was noble, it is impossible to pretend there is no conflict of interest (both real and perceived) in our decision to be a participant in Internet.org."

The protests are not against free data at all. Internet.org could have very well given 100megabytes/month free. They could support it with ads, which is perfectly neutral, if they wanted.

Saying that "the poor don't/can't make the right choice for themselves so let us chose for them" - now, THAT IS ivory tower thinking.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#114

Post by gnufied »

lukevdp wrote: post #108

Internet.org is offering a free service to people who would otherwise have no access to the Internet. Net neutrality on a free service in a developing country is an entirely different issue than net neutrality in developed countries with high Internet access rates. I see similarities between this and GMO in developing countries, where rich, well fed people in developed countries oppose gmo in countries that can't fee…

If internet.org was really about providing internet access to people who otherwise can't access it, what is stopping Facebook from making it open? In current form lets say internet.org allows access to 100+ websites. I assume speed will be slow anyways. So make it open. Speed and data cap will be a deterrent for people wanting to abuse the platform (and things like torrent etc can be blocked anyways)

But I guess that will not serve facebook's interests. As an Indian, I actually prefer no internet at all compared to a moderated list that I am allowed to access. The way things are moving - Govt. has to act to provide internet in India for the last mile consumers anyways. With curated access there is a danger of wanting to maintain status quo because that kind of access - checks a tickbox.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#115

Post by nileshtrivedi »

exacube wrote: post #100
ndesaulniers wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's the opposite of net neutrality. It's picking winners and losers. If Facebook is free, but you have to pay for local home grown Indian social networking sites, well then how will those businesses ever compete? Personally, I'm torn. I'm all for free access to Wikipedia. The problem is, not all of the world's knowledge exists there, so you therefor are only giving people a taste of knowledge. With Facebook…

I see the argument for competition, but I don't think that freedom is as important as the freedom of communication and education. Imagine someone in the slums of India (there are tens of millions in these conditions) wanting to learn more about irrigation. Is it more important that they have no limited internet for the sake for competition, or limited internet?

Fair enough. But consider the fact that there ARE alternative solutions and internet.org is not the most optimal.

Why not give X megabytes/month data to the user for free and let HIM chose what the "essential internet services" for HIM are? Internet.org is a non-profit so it would be completely fine giving it for free. But even if they wanted to recover their costs, they could do it in a neutral manner - by ads.

Even with your premise accepted, there are better solutions. Internet.org's current model makes sense only when you consider the ulterior motives as well.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#116

Post by nileshtrivedi »

napperjabber wrote: post #112
Mahn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://i.imgur.com/PAwf6e3.png "Some connectivity is better than no connectivity, hence the violation of NN is justified" Does he really not see the enormous liability that a precedent like this can create?

There is a bigger picture you're not aware of that is in play here. Zuckerberg is providing free internet to millions.

There are ways to provide free internet to millions, while NOT compromising on neutrality or providing convenient network leverage to Facebook and Reliance to pick winners.

How is X megabytes / month for free but with ads (this is network neutral) not better than Internet.org's current model? Why not let those millions decide which are the essential internet services for them? Do the poor millions don't deserve choice?

Let the user chose for himself. How hard can this be?

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#117

Post by jace »

denzil_correa wrote: post #87
viggy_prabhu wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having no organization like EFF is something that needs to be fixed. Depending on volunteers for such activity may not always be feasible in long term fights like this. #Sec66A fight took 3 years of dedication by many individuals to reach some conclusion and we can be sure many such fights will come in future. https://wethegoondas.in/ is such issue which still hasnt got enough attraction. Are there efforts in forming…

> Having no organization like EFF is something that needs to be fixed. I think the closest organization to EFF that India has is the Centre for Internet & Society (CIS). Though, the aim of CIS isn't about digital civil rights like EFF. It is more to study Internet related policy with respect to India. Many times, CIS does take similar stands to that of EFF would given the situation. http://cis-india.org

Because there is no tradition of funding civil society organisations in India, CIS is mostly foreign-funded. That puts them under the purview of FCRA, which means they are explicitly forbidden from lobbying and politics, at risk of having their funding cut off. They necessarily have to limit themselves to policy research.

CIS is not and will never be the EFF of India until the FCRA rules change. We need another organisation.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#118

Post by kamaal »

exacube wrote: post #91

Can someone give me a good argument as to why no internet is better than free limited internet with facebook + google search + wikipedia? If Facebook will provide free limited internet (and as always, you can pay regularly to get full internet access) for a lot of basic service, it only seems reasonable they will package their facebook and messenger apps as well. On the whole, do you think internet.org is a bad, nega…

>>why no internet is better than free limited internet with facebook + google search + wikipedia?

Eventually these companies will work towards making internet difficult to access so their own sites can have the monopoly.

Internet isn't impossible to provide eventually every one will have access. But to do it this way will create problems which takes decades to solve.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#119

Post by jace »

manish_gill wrote: post #95
ignoramous wrote: post #94

It is surprising that both Flipkart and Times Group pulled out of Facebook's initiative, but unsurprising that they pulled out in tandem. Both Flipkart and Times Group have taken multi-million dollar investments from early Facebook employees and some even sit on their board. They must have really felt the heat to take such an action. Ironically, a lot of awareness in India around net-neutrality spread through WhatsAp…

Apparently Times Group hasn't really pulled out. They have announced that they will, provided their competition pledges to do the same.

They've completely pulled out for some services and conditionally for some others.

Re: Blow to Internet.org as Indian Internet Companies Begin to Withdraw

#120

Post by kamaal »

ignoramous wrote: post #94

It is surprising that both Flipkart and Times Group pulled out of Facebook's initiative, but unsurprising that they pulled out in tandem. Both Flipkart and Times Group have taken multi-million dollar investments from early Facebook employees and some even sit on their board. They must have really felt the heat to take such an action. Ironically, a lot of awareness in India around net-neutrality spread through WhatsAp…

>>It is surprising that both Flipkart and Times Group pulled out of Facebook's initiative

They were counting on people's sentiments to fall for free services/products. They realized it could back fire big time. That 'we are for net neutrality' argument is plain B.S. They are making a virtue out of compulsion.

Flipkart has a string of screw up's off late. The Xiaomi flash sale, the big billion dollar sale, other price related issues.

They are already falling out of fashion. Last thing they need is to perceived as a 'yet another baniya company'.

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