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100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

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Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#91

Post by hluska »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59
kaybe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 Have a paper from 1997. It's about how after they changed to blind auditions, the number of women hired as orchestra musicians rose severalfold. I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.

Most diversity activists in tech oppose bringing such approaches into tech on the grounds that it would reduce diversity. Ashe Dryden is the canonical cite: http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an... In contrast, I think most of those who oppose the diversity activists (e.g. myself) strongly favor such approaches ("death by standardized brainteaser", hire by github, work sample tests).

I wanted to avoid replying to you. Our perspective is dramatically different and I am tired of arguing with people like you who 'oppose diversity activists'.

However, did you even read the article that you linked to?? Someone posted a link showing that if you blindfold people (so they just listen to how people play), you end up with more women in orchestras. The Ashe Dryden article is about how using open source contributions as a sole barometer of 'merit' leaves an awful lot of talented people out in the cold.

The only point where she mentions anything close to your point is when she says that many female developers use androgynous sounding names and won't put pictures of themselves online.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#92

Post by yummyfajitas »

kasey_junk wrote: post #76
yummyfajitas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets be concrete. I'm streaming realtime events and then running statistical models on the datastream in order to manipulate user behavior. What "different perspectives" are offered by women, non-Asian minorities or LGBQT+? Is there a secret prediction method that whites/asians don't know about? A special LGBQT+ streaming architecture? On several occasions I've joined a company and been the only diversity carrier. I…

It's pretty trivial to find examples where societal biases create negative results for companies that do not move beyond them. For instance, in some places (you may be aware of ;) there is a societal bias that heterosexual anglo men are hyper sexual. That they are literally untrustworthy due to it is not an uncommon bias. It is an easy jump from that bias to an implicit (or even explicit) belief that it is better NOT…

I'm not sure how your post relates to mine.

I'm hiring a data team. Based on the applicant pool it'll probably be me and 3 Punjabi males assuming I hire purely based on ability [1]. My claim is that I'll get no marginal value out of hiring a Maharashtrian, an African or a westerner over an equally qualified Punjabi. I provide no special western perspective on Kafka.

I also don't know why it would be the "right thing to do" to hire a Maharashtrian relative over a Punjabi - but that might be because I don't believe in group rights. If you do, I'd love to know how you choose which groups are relevant - there are, after all, 2^{6 billion} subgroups of humanity.

[1] I take pains to do exactly that - I skip resumes and look at github, follow scripted interviews with objective criteria, etc.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#93

Post by yummyfajitas »

hluska wrote: post #91
yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most diversity activists in tech oppose bringing such approaches into tech on the grounds that it would reduce diversity. Ashe Dryden is the canonical cite: http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an... In contrast, I think most of those who oppose the diversity activists (e.g. myself) strongly favor such approaches ("death by standardized brainteaser", hire by github, work sample tests).

I wanted to avoid replying to you. Our perspective is dramatically different and I am tired of arguing with people like you who 'oppose diversity activists'. However, did you even read the article that you linked to?? Someone posted a link showing that if you blindfold people (so they just listen to how people play), you end up with more women in orchestras. The Ashe Dryden article is about how using open source cont…

I'm familiar with orchestral blind auditions and the effect they had (though not from the article, my mom is a classical musician). I favor using blind auditions to eliminate bias. I favor the same in tech.

My claim is that most activists in tech don't really believe that bias is the cause of underrepresentation here. As evidence for that, observe how few such activists actually favor purely meritocratic hiring.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#94

Post by kweinber »

gone35 wrote: post #69
onion2k wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm streaming realtime events and then running statistical models on the datastream in order to manipulate user behavior. Having a more diverse team that includes someone with a more emotionally-driven perspective could lead to someone asking the question "Is the way we're manipulating user behavior actually ethical?" This isn't about finding different technical solutions to problems; it's about finding different pro…

"Having a more diverse team that includes someone with a more emotionally-driven perspective could lead to someone asking the question "Is the way we're manipulating user behavior actually ethical?" [Emphasis added] Geez, I really hope that that was just an unfortunate turn of phrase. You can't possibly mean that non-(white-males) have a quote "more emotionally-driven perspective", do you?

I read the post to suggest that the existing team was obviously not very emotionally sensitive since they are explicitly working to "manipulate behavior" which sounds sinister. Perhaps hiring more folks who are both rational AND emotionally sensitive to their users is the diversity they need.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#95

Post by punkbit »

blackThrowaway wrote: post #64
yardie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we do need more black people in tech. And you get more black people in tech by having black people in tech. Going out to recruit, mentor, and support black tech candidates and workers. Seriously, the latest black YC candidate was a prison messaging service. More power to them but for a lot of blacks in the US the 2 paths that earn the most publicity are sports and criminal activity. Even when I was a teenager an…

I'm am assuming that you are black, right? I am also black and your post causes me to frown. How does being less wealthy get tangled up in your race? What your anecdote appears to describe is economic inequality, not race inequality.

I'm transparent

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#96

Post by yummyfajitas »

kweinber wrote: post #94
gone35 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Having a more diverse team that includes someone with a more emotionally-driven perspective could lead to someone asking the question "Is the way we're manipulating user behavior actually ethical?" [Emphasis added] Geez, I really hope that that was just an unfortunate turn of phrase. You can't possibly mean that non-(white-males) have a quote "more emotionally-driven perspective", do you?

I read the post to suggest that the existing team was obviously not very emotionally sensitive since they are explicitly working to "manipulate behavior" which sounds sinister. Perhaps hiring more folks who are both rational AND emotionally sensitive to their users is the diversity they need.

What's sinister about it? If you ever make a design change to increase conversions, you are working to manipulate user behavior. Are landing pages, a/b tests, pretty designs, and pictures of human faces now "sinister"?

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#97

Post by jrs99 »

random854 wrote: post #39
digitalzombie wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no proof that women are systematically targeted to be ousted from the tech field. I haven't seen any research papers with any clear evidence of this other than that there are more boys than girls in a particular field. I'm sure there are other occupation with the same thing. There are too many Fillipino in Nurse career I don't see any body saying to diversify it. There are tons of Vietnamese in nails, my uncl…

Read 'Unlocking the Clubhouse' (in regard to women.) It's dated but more recent research has similar conclusions. I can't speak personally about race issues in tech. What I do know is that the industry thrives on ideas, and as people themselves have diverse ideas, missing an entire group's is missing a lot. Why isn't the field more racially diverse? Are black people 'naturally not interested in tech'? Or do they face…

why even bother with someone who claims they've never seen research that proves discrimination in tech? That there's no discrimination against blacks who want to open up small businesses? Or claims that no one wants to diversify nursing? Less than a minute on google and I've found research that concludes there is discrimination in tech, that blacks face discrimination from banks when starting small businesses, and a handful of articles about diversity in nursing just on the first page of google results for that topic.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#98

Post by ebfe »

The average IQ of African-Americans is a standard deviation below that of whites, which in turn is a bit below that of Asians and Ashkenazi Jews [1].

Under the assumption that the tech industry has a higher average IQ than the population as a whole, then in a world free of any sort of discrimination, one would expect to see blacks underrepresented and Asians overrepresented.

This isn't a fun fact to discuss; I don't intend any sort of disrespect towards people like the author who are most likely smarter than me. But it's one that needs to be accounted for in discussions about race.

1. http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen3...

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#99

Post by kasey_junk »

dudul wrote: post #87
kasey_junk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most "non-fizzbuzzers" are college graduates who got a liberal arts degree and are trying to pivot to a more lucrative field. Prove it. That has not been my experience in hiring at all.

It has been mine. I have been interviewing and hiring developers for the past 6 years, this was my empirical observation. I am glad you had a different experience.

I think the important thing to remember in any discussion about hiring qualification is that our empirical evidence largely fails us. Even those of us who have spent lots of time, effort and experience on the subject are largely dealing with small sample sizes. These small sample sizes inform our biases which is a negative feedback loop, especially in the case that the confirm our existing biases.

So for instance, in my empirical observations, candidates from top tier engineering schools largely perform more poorly on fizzbuzz than candidates with no college experience what so ever. This observation was so largely opposed to my existing bias that it caused me question fizzbuzz as a qualification tool.

My investigations into this found lots of things that made me think that fizzbuzz is a bad tool (even though I had very high biases towards it in the beginning).

The lesson I took from that, was not "don't use fizzbuzz" even though I don't anymore, or "people with no college degree are better candidates than those from top tier universities". It was "small sample sizes make nearly all statements about hiring trends dubious." So "prove it". Is my default answer to that sort of statement.

Re: 100 Days as a Black Man in Silicon Valley

#100

Post by kasey_junk »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #92
kasey_junk wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty trivial to find examples where societal biases create negative results for companies that do not move beyond them. For instance, in some places (you may be aware of ;) there is a societal bias that heterosexual anglo men are hyper sexual. That they are literally untrustworthy due to it is not an uncommon bias. It is an easy jump from that bias to an implicit (or even explicit) belief that it is better NOT…

I'm not sure how your post relates to mine. I'm hiring a data team. Based on the applicant pool it'll probably be me and 3 Punjabi males assuming I hire purely based on ability [1]. My claim is that I'll get no marginal value out of hiring a Maharashtrian, an African or a westerner over an equally qualified Punjabi. I provide no special western perspective on Kafka. I also don't know why it would be the "right thing…

You asked for how a diversity of thinking improves a company. A specific example of that is a more diverse workforce will be more inclusive at the funnel end of the hiring pipeline, making your applicant pool better. It doesn't matter that you provide no western perspective on Kafka. What matters is that your western perspective provides no negative impact to your ability to work on Kafka problems.

If there were a systematic bias against westerners that meant they were unlikely to apply for, get callbacks for, or be able to work in your environment with Kafka, actively removing those impediments is an opportunity. The larger the population being biased against and the more acute the need for applicants is, the larger the opportunity.

Framing this as a "hire one person over another" or as a "rights" issue is incorrect. Many of the systematic biases can be corrected for in ways that either don't cost the unbiased set anything, or provide advantages to that set as well. Further, this is an issue of courtesy and empathy, not rights. No one has the right to my courtesy or empathy, but providing it broadly is the right thing to do.

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