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German author Guenter Grass dies

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Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#51

Post by brianterrel »

ukigumo wrote: post #34
ukigumo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite enjoyed the "Tin Drum" but I admit that I lost a bit of respect for the man when it was revealed he had worked for the Stasi. Still, it is a great loss of a great writer.

I thought I read something about him having worked for Stasi but I am clearly mistaken or at least can't find anything about it now. Still the point I was trying to make is that the man and the writer are different and if Mr. Grass worked for the SS instead of Stasi that doesn't make him any better as a man, does it?

Toward the end of the war, the SS meant something very different from before the war. Mr. Grass didn't "work for" the SS; He was conscripted into an SS combat unit after volunteering for service with the regular war department.

I don't have much of an opinion either way of Mr. Grass, but I don't think volunteering to fight in the Army as a teenager reflects negatively on his character.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#52

Post by bostonpete »

brianterrel wrote: post #51
ukigumo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I read something about him having worked for Stasi but I am clearly mistaken or at least can't find anything about it now. Still the point I was trying to make is that the man and the writer are different and if Mr. Grass worked for the SS instead of Stasi that doesn't make him any better as a man, does it?

Toward the end of the war, the SS meant something very different from before the war. Mr. Grass didn't "work for" the SS; He was conscripted into an SS combat unit after volunteering for service with the regular war department. I don't have much of an opinion either way of Mr. Grass, but I don't think volunteering to fight in the Army as a teenager reflects negatively on his character.

> I don't think volunteering to fight in the Army as a teenager reflects negatively on his character.

I believe criticisms were leveled at him mostly for not disclosing that he served in the SS until 60 years after the fact (despite Nazi criticism being a common theme in his writing).

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#53

Post by mcantelon »

dao- wrote: post #25
yehosef wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poem conveniently omits an important point - that Israel has never called for Iran's destruction whereas Iran has repeatedly called to "wipe Israel off the map." Anyone who equates Israel and Iran on this issue is either ignorant or biased, possibly both. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/ http://video.foxnews.com/v/3704646723001/irans-supreme-leade...

Yup, of course this is no coincidence. The "poem" is straight-out antisemitic. Old habits die hard, after all Grass had an SS history (that he forgot to mention over decades). [Edit] It's kind of obvious, but I'll say it since this is often missed by those applauding Grass for his late poem: If Israel wanted to destroy Iran, it had already done so, given its nuclear power. Instead, Israel has (so far successfully) us…

Hindsight is 20/20. Grass likely joined the SS as he'd been drafted to do labor (and IIRC the Nazis weren't nice to those who tried to draft-dodge). He didn't fire a shot, committed no atrocities, and went on to criticize Nazi and bourgeois culture. Dismissing the poem as antisemitic without explaining how it's antisemitic is just a lazy, cheap shot.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#54

Post by this_user »

wyzellak wrote: post #26
morsch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hardly qualified to comment on any specifics. I'll only go as far as saying that Grass wasn't well-known for his love of snack food, and I interpret the poem as referring to his being argumentative, even beyond his lifetime. Maybe someone else can chime in.

There's a phrase in German language, "eine harte Nuss zu knacken haben", literally "to have a hard nut to crack". Maybe that means that he'll be cracking nuts (problems) even after he's buried?

I would agree with that idea. The bag of nuts may represent the issues he has concerned himself with over the years or they may be future issues in need of a solution. Grass has always been very outspoken, very political and, more often than not, provocative. I believe he is writing about his legacy. He is convinced that his works will outlast him and that he will continue to have an impact through them even after this death. One could even go a step further and argue that he is saying his works are him (or at least his essence) and therefore he will continue to live on. The sounds coming from the grave may either represent the cracking of nuts, meaning solving the issue or they may represent the sound of fighting over said issues stimulated by Grass' ideas.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#55

Post by [deleted] »

ncza wrote: post #44
skore wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd translate the last two lines slightly different: With a bag of nuts I'd like to be buried and with the freshest of teeth. When there is gnashing where I lie, one can surmise: It's him, still him.

"er ist das" also sounds exactly like "he eats that".

[deleted]

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#56

Post by ukigumo »

brianterrel wrote: post #51
ukigumo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I read something about him having worked for Stasi but I am clearly mistaken or at least can't find anything about it now. Still the point I was trying to make is that the man and the writer are different and if Mr. Grass worked for the SS instead of Stasi that doesn't make him any better as a man, does it?

Toward the end of the war, the SS meant something very different from before the war. Mr. Grass didn't "work for" the SS; He was conscripted into an SS combat unit after volunteering for service with the regular war department. I don't have much of an opinion either way of Mr. Grass, but I don't think volunteering to fight in the Army as a teenager reflects negatively on his character.

Well you are certainly free to think that but I disagree with you.

When you join the army you are also joining what that army stands for. If you were a communist, certainly joining the US Marines would not be high on your priority list, would it?

Unfortunately having an opinion seems to be met with downvotes here at HN which is unfortunate for such a otherwise pleasant group of people.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#57

Post by ajays »

yehosef wrote: post #24
littletimmy wrote: post #13

His poem "What Must Be Said" is a wonderful commentary on Israel and the threat it poses to world peace. He talks about how the West has turned a blind eye to Israel's development of nuclear weapons because of its collective guilt. He argues that this must stop. Here it is (translated): https://kugelmass.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/a-legitimate-tran...

The poem conveniently omits an important point - that Israel has never called for Iran's destruction whereas Iran has repeatedly called to "wipe Israel off the map." Anyone who equates Israel and Iran on this issue is either ignorant or biased, possibly both. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/ http://video.foxnews.com/v/3704646723001/irans-supreme-leade...

Meanwhile, it's perfectly OK for Netanyahu to keep threatening to bomb Iran: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/02/brief-history-...

It's perfectly OK for the US/Israel to attack Iran's industrial infrastructure with a virus: http://www.wired.com/2014/11/countdown-to-zero-day-stuxnet/ (an act that Obama said would be an "act of war" if done to the US)

It's perfectly OK for Israel to kill Iranian nuclear scientists: http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/US-pressuring-Is...

And it's perfectly OK for people like John McCain (who came this >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

But hey, Ahmedinajad says one sentence that's dubiously translated, and that's not OK.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#58

Post by mikeash »

nir wrote: post #32
littletimmy wrote: post #13

His poem "What Must Be Said" is a wonderful commentary on Israel and the threat it poses to world peace. He talks about how the West has turned a blind eye to Israel's development of nuclear weapons because of its collective guilt. He argues that this must stop. Here it is (translated): https://kugelmass.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/a-legitimate-tran...

Since this is a hacker crowd where data should count for something, consider that the entire Arab-Israeli conflict since 1948 so far caused less than half as many deaths as the current Syrian civil war, let alone the Iran-Iraq War or the Iraq invasion. So, claiming this nation of 7 million that is smaller in size than Lake Michigan to be "posing a threat to world peace" is pathetic, and frankly says much more about G…

The deaths due to the Arab-Israeli conflict have nothing to do with the potential consequences of Israel's nuclear weapons. Likewise, the small population and small landmass doesn't reduce the threat. If anything, it increases the threat, because Israel has a much smaller capability to withstand conventional war than any other nuclear-armed country.

Consider that Israel's stockpile, while unknown, is estimated to be larger than Pakistan's and India's combined, and that it is surrounded by enemies rather than merely being bordered by some as is India and Pakistan. Those two are a major threat to world stability and a likely source of a near to medium term nuclear war. We're really lucky that Israel's enemies have not managed to get their shit together since 1973 on the wiping-out-the-Jews front, because if they did or do, it could easily turn into a seriously devastating conflict.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#59

Post by rat87 »

nebolo wrote: post #48
nir wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I agree. Al Qaeda doesn't have the capacity to really threaten world peace except by provoking a shortsighted response, which they did. But the comparison is meaningless anyway. AQ is not a nation, it's an organization with a certain ideology. It's not comparable to a country, like Israel, which is a collection of various ideologies and worldviews.

While I agree with you, I think what is claimed it that Israel and AQ are unique in their potential for destruction ("threaten world peace") not necessarily their previous actions in that regard. If that is the case, comparing their body count is almost meaningless.

That's ridiculous. In what way is it unique? Nukes are more likely to be used in a Pakistan-Indian conflict and now that the cold war is over there's no chance of a regional war spiralling into WWIII.

Re: German author Guenter Grass dies

#60

Post by shmulkey18 »

littletimmy wrote: post #13

His poem "What Must Be Said" is a wonderful commentary on Israel and the threat it poses to world peace. He talks about how the West has turned a blind eye to Israel's development of nuclear weapons because of its collective guilt. He argues that this must stop. Here it is (translated): https://kugelmass.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/a-legitimate-tran...

Former Nazi criticizes the Jewish state. Shocker.
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