Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system • Hacker News Board

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#81

Post by untog » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #69

fredley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, when I heard that the files were protected with a watermark, I assumed that they actually meant a steganographic watermark. I thought that this tech had been adopted into the industry ages ago, I'm rather surprised if it isn't the case, given the arms-race between the media and illegal distribution.

Arms race? The entertainment industry has cantered out onto the jousting pitch with their horse and lance. Meanwhile illegal distribution is calibrating the laser cannons in their orbital battle station and dispatching their aircraft carrier battle groups.

I don't think "arms race" really applies when the two sides are building entirely different weapons. The entertainment industry is interested in pursuing the source of leaks - as the other comments here have mentioned, they've gotten pretty good at it.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#82

Post by oldmanjay » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

est wrote: post #36

fredley wrote: post #2

...or just use steganography. Steganography in videos can be made to be invisible to the naked eye, and extremely robust - even to video compression. It's also difficult to detect, and even more difficult to remove/tamper with. What the author of the article is proposing is actually a kind of steganography, albeit a rather crude one, and probably rather difficult to implement (since scene timings will be different fo…

> and extremely robust - even to video compression. It's also difficult to detect, and even more difficult to remove/tamper with. Split & merge frame by frame, in random, from multiple video sources. Visually they will be the same, but steganography has a high chance of been broken.

it's amusing to me, how much effort people are willing to put in to get free entertainment.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#83

Post by HelloNurse » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #67

URSpider94 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The minimum difference in scene length allowable would be a single frame.

Do you actually know that or are you speculating? I wouldn't be surprised if MP4 (or other video formats) provided a mechanism for tweaking the timing of a given frame. Of course, if you're using such a primitive watermark you might as well just add a note in the metadata...

Yes, we know that. Video playback has physical constraints; a file format where image elements are sampled at irregular time intervals is obviously possible and useful for very "scientific" purposes like measuring when images are acquired and interpolating the raw data, but not reasonable for playing back on a screen with good compression and easy decompression.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#84

Post by untog » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

gpmcadam wrote: post #24

> Apart from that I think that binge-watching the first > 4 episodes is a stupid idea that will make you ache > for a month waiting for the 5th episode ☺. For me, I find more enjoyment in binging shows than being drip-fed, I watched all 4 in a row and don't regret not waiting (besides I've waited 12 months I can wait a few more weeks for more.) But more importantly, my online activity means I'll probably be spoiled b…

I'm the opposite. I love watching an episode then devouring every piece of online content about it over the next week. I subscribe to the subreddits (the GOT one will not allow discussion of the leaked episodes), enjoy every conspiracy theory, etc. etc. - compared to a show like House of Cards, where I just watch it and drop it.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#85

Post by exelius » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

Or there's another reason not to use a better tracking system: HBO is ok with leaks. The more the show gets leaked, the larger the audience. Some portion of that audience will pay for HBO, and hopefully stick around for the other HBO shows. HBO has been remarkably progressive on the piracy front.

It's also only the first four episodes: enough to get you hooked enough to want to see the end. Of course, torrents are always an option, but at some point $15/mo is worth less than the hassle of downloading the show on a weekly basis.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#86

Post by onion2k » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:38 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #69

fredley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, when I heard that the files were protected with a watermark, I assumed that they actually meant a steganographic watermark. I thought that this tech had been adopted into the industry ages ago, I'm rather surprised if it isn't the case, given the arms-race between the media and illegal distribution.

Arms race? The entertainment industry has cantered out onto the jousting pitch with their horse and lance. Meanwhile illegal distribution is calibrating the laser cannons in their orbital battle station and dispatching their aircraft carrier battle groups.

I think you're wrong about the two sides. The guys with the orbital battle stations are the distribution channel. Watermarking isn't there to deter them, so their lasers don't matter.

Watermarking is a deterrent to the people who upload the content in the first place. The ones who're careless about who they'll share things with. A unique watermark (steganographic or visible) is about finding the source of the leak. In that arms-race the entertainment industry is facing people who can remove a watermark - but we have no idea whether or not they're winning. The fact that torrents exist with watermarks intact makes me think that perhaps they are.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#87

Post by objclxt » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:41 PM UTC

robertwalsh0 wrote: post #74

Was talking to my partner about this and she had a pretty clever take: "Seems like a simple idea would simply be to change just the spelling of one seemingly insignificant name near the end of each version of the credits and then by actually watching the credits you'd know the leaker straight away." "Of course, you'd leave the watermark on there so the leaker doesn't know how you caught them and thinks that the water…

That's a mountweazel (better known as a fictitious entry) - reference books used to do it to trap people copying the text:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#88

Post by fluidcruft » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:41 PM UTC

est wrote: post #72

royjacobs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any steganography solution on the market today that is worth its salt would actually be robust against this. The amount of different sources you would have to combine to protect against this is higher than you'd realistically be able to find. Disclaimer: I used to work at one of the leading companies in this field.

the algorithm could tell exactly which sources are used in the final video? impressive!

Are you being sardonic? There are extremely obvious ways to do this particularly since they've got both space, color, sound and particularly time to play with. Unmixing signals isn't rocket science, especially if you've provided the signals that are getting mixed.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#89

Post by intopieces » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:41 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #64

intopieces wrote: post #50

Can someone help me understand the negative impact of this leak? From what I can tell, the leak only benefits HBO. Viewership numbers in the age of time-shifting are worthless. Moreover, viewers now cost HBO money, in terms of server load during the peak viewership time. If even a small number of people avoided the broadcast during the premiere, HBO actually wins - and there's no telling how many people decided to su…

Viewership numbers in the age of time-shifting are worthless Do Comcast/TWC/DirecTV/Echostar feel that way? If even one person that was planning to subscribe to HBO over cable/satellite to watch this season decided to bail and watch the torrent instead, then the leak has economic impact. DVRs are irrelevant.

They most certainly do not feel that way because their business model is quite different from that of HBO.

Re: Game of Thrones leak and watermark: a stupid tracking system

#90

Post by intopieces » Mon, Apr 13, 2015, 3:44 PM UTC

smitherfield wrote: post #73

bryanlarsen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"use it or lose it" is only a property of trademark laws, not copyright or other IP laws.

If HBO is not making a good-faith effort to secure for George R.R. Martin all the royalties that he is entitled to (which deliberately leaking GoT to torrent sites certainly would not be), then there isn't a court in the world that wouldn't consider HBO to be in breach of contract and return the TV rights to Martin.

> which deliberately leaking GoT to torrent sites certainly would not be

This is my central question that has not been answered. How is deliberately leaking GoT not beneficial to HBO? How does the company generate revenue from everyone watching it on their service at once (remember, HBO themselves mentioned that they don't mind piracy and the old joke is that for every one subscriber to HBO GO there are dozens of other, non-related people using those credentials)