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New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

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Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#101
post #43
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So New York pensioners would have saved $1.8 billion?

No, they would have earned a lower overall return, net of fees. That's the point of the rebuttal article, the original NYTimes piece was a hatchet job.

The article says 0.20% fees. This here says 0.02%.

The article is based entirely on an assumption 10x higher than Vanguard's institutional fees. He declares it cheap relative to mutual funds, which is an absurd comparison.

The lower bound of his fee comparison is 8 basis points, which is 4x higher.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#102
post #99

Relevant to this discussion is Warren Buffet's 1975 memo to the board of the Washington Post regarding investment strategy for their pension fund. He advised being patient, investing like an owner, and eschewing highly paid money managers. A quote from the memo: "If above-average performance is to be their yard stick, the vast majority of investment managers must fail. Will a few succeed — due to either to chance or…

A point he still believes in. In 2008 he made a million-dollar bet with a highly-paid money manager: http://longbets.org/362/ Seven years into the bet, he's way ahead: http://fortune.com/2015/02/03/berkshires-buffett-adds-to-his... For those interested in the coin-flipping analysis, I strongly recommend "Fooled by Randomness", which is a smart, passionate, and funny examination of how that problem plays out in the in…

It's nice to see them put their money where their mouth is on this one.

And it's great to see the $1M is actually up around $1.7M at this point. Hopefully it continues to grow before it gets donated to charity.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#103
post #19

Why aren't fees capped at some limit? Like...maybe 100 million per year? I'm just curious how much harder it is to manage a $100bn fund vs a $200bn fund. Is it twice as difficult?

It's definitely more difficult. Let me give you an example.

I'm currently running an algo that is giving me returns of about 25-30%/year. I do this as a hobby - I don't generally devote more than 10 hours/week to this. Why doesn't NY just give me their money? Why aren't I the greatest investor ever?

The answer is that my algo consists of watching the market and picking off liquidity from the top of the book (typically I made $2k last year on approx $10k in the market. If I put $20k into the strategy I'd be losing money by taking liquidity from deeper in the book. I.e., buying 500 shares might cost me $10/share but buying 1000 shares might cost me $10.10/share. I'd lose another $0.10 closing my positions, and shaving off $0.20 in profit per trade would kill my profits.

If I were investing 5-10x as much, phrases like "very rarely taking liquidity" would not even be possible - I'd have to take liquidity and I'd then lose the spread as well. And if I were investing 100x as much, I'd be moving the market and losing even more.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#104
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but does it really take double the effort for an invement manager to manage $100B compared to $50B?

No, but you may not be able to find a quality manager to manage the investment for a flat fee

With an index fund you don't need one, you're just tracking the indices published by S&P/Barclays/etc.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#105
post #62

I'm a bit confused about what the author means when he says that managers should charge equal to the extra value they add to a portfolio. Why should I hire a manager that beats the market, he he charges the amount he beats the market with? Wouldn't that leave me of the same as simply averaging the market?

Because they aren't charging the amount they beat the market by, they're a percentage of that. In your example, you suggest that you could get $100 by using an index, but instead, you hire a guy who gets you $200 for not using an index, and then charges you the $100, and you're no better off. In the article, you could get $100 by using an index, but instead, you hired a guy who gets you $200, and then charges you a p…

No, this is the section of the article he was referring to: "Actually my simple dumb model for investment management fees is that managers should, on the whole, charge more than the value they add, since (1) good managers who add value should charge fees equal to the value they add, (2) bad managers who don't add value should charge fees equal to the value that the good managers add, and (3) there are at least as many bad managers as good ones. So I think New York's pensions are doing rather well in getting the managers to give up any of their outperformance."

The way this reads to me is that his idea of an actively managed fund should either match index performance after fees (in the case of a good manager) or perform worse after fees (in the case of a bad manager). In which case, you'd be better off sticking with index funds instead of betting on whether or not you have a good manager.

To put it into your example: The S&P 500 has returns of 5% for the year of 2020. Guy_A has his investments managed by Investor_Good who gets gross returns of 7%, but charges fees that leave Guy_A with 5% net returns (~1.87% management fee). Guy_B has his cousin Investor_Bad manage his scratch-off earnings who ends up matching the index with gross returns of 5%, but charges the same fee as Investor_Good leaving Guy_B with net returns of 3.04%.

Edit: I just wanted to add that this is how the how situation (not the NYC Pension, but the quoted section) sounds to me. Finance is not my area of expertise, so I could be misinterpreting something.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#106
post #29
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a link in the article: " By Matt Levine Here is a simple model for hedge fund fees: 1. There are some people who can reliably generate alpha -- returns in excess of the market return -- but those people are rare. 2. It is somewhat difficult to tell who those people are; in particular, at any given time, there are more people who look like they can generate alpha than who actually can. 3. If you are one of the pe…

Ok, so I'll be the guy on the other side of this hypothetical deal. In the scenario he's described, either I get market returns by paying the elite guy to keep his alpha, or I get sub-market returns by paying too much to a guy who isn't actually elite. So, best case scenario I get market returns? Then why not just invest in an index fund?

The other thing hedge funds offer is alternative markets to track. So while some may track the U.S. stock market (which you can get by just buying SPY), some funds track other markets like commodities, foreign equities, housing, bonds, etc. Almost anything that you can put a price on you can find a hedge fund willing to trade. For these "nontraditional" investments it can be rational to pay someone even if they cannot beat the benchmark, simply because you couldn't do it yourself.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#108
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes right along with expressing costs in Really Big Numbers! without giving context. For example, the $200M/year spent on pension fees is 0.2% of NYC's annual budget of $78B.

Are you sure that NYC has an annual budget of $78B? That's a humongous number for any city, and an outrageous number for a city with a Subway system that is (supposedly still) in a state of disrepair.

That's around $10k/resident (and the city gets immense amount of non-resident visitors). Given things like public schools, transport, fire/police, etc. it doesn't seem particularly high to me.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#109
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goes right along with expressing costs in Really Big Numbers! without giving context. For example, the $200M/year spent on pension fees is 0.2% of NYC's annual budget of $78B.

Are you sure that NYC has an annual budget of $78B? That's a humongous number for any city, and an outrageous number for a city with a Subway system that is (supposedly still) in a state of disrepair.

"Disrepair" is a strong word. There are problems, but most of the time, it runs smoothly for me. It's an enormous piece of infrastructure that mostly works. That's no small feat.

Re: New York Discovers Wall Street Charges Fees

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So my question to HN is - what is so hard (or not) about making market returns for a fund of this size? Boggleheads have been asking that question for like 40 years. Vanguard funds (which simply pick the top 500 shares, or all the shares... depending on the fund...) outperform something like 85% of actively managed funds. One theory is that modern markets are extremely efficient, which means that actively managed f…

So, and this is a naive question, why on earth does a Vanguard fund charge a percentage for what seems to be very simple administration (sell 1000000 shares in X, buy 100000 shares in Y, make sure VWAP is good). I mean - if I was a trustee of a million fund let alone billion I would expect to know the baseline level of dumbest simplest possible investing process. That approach seem the simplest.

Larger transactions have higher execution costs. Larger funds have larger transactions. It probably isn't the case that there is a linear correlation between fund -> transaction -> execution cost but it is a close enough approximation that everyone is mostly happy.
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