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Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

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Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#271

Post by minot »

sls wrote: post #239
wwweston wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. OS X has many merits on this front, but since 10.3 I've found that the first few dot releases of OS X have the same caveats often enough (both in terms of bugs/hazards and in terms of gratuitous UI "progress") that it usually seems better to wait past .x.4/5. Now there's this, of course. Since the problem showed up in 2011, maybe I should go b…

> JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. My reply to that has always been that Windows is only $300 if you don't value your time. (Preserving archaic cost of Windows to match JWZ quote.) The implication that the one system is free and time-consuming and the other moderately in price but not time-consuming is entirely false. At the time, for many requirements, configuring and administeri…

Same thing when people say if you're not the customer, you're the product. That is a logical fallacy because you are still a product even if you pay for the software.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#272

Post by JoachimS »

mattdotc wrote: post #182
PopsiclePete wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, 10.10.0 for me was perfect. 10.10.1 broke my wifi. Anytime the computer woke up from sleep, I'd have to reset the wifi card so it could find my access point. After 10.10.2 came out, I got my second-ever full computer lock-up. I've had the same OS image since 10.5 (migrated and upgraded multiple time, obviously) and this was the second time my computer required a hard reboot. And this was while watching a video…

>Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue. >I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer. When's the last time you actually installed dri…

"When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?"

This christmas. Building a new desktop for the first time in years. Bought high quality everything - Asus MB, Intel Quad core CPU, corsair memories etc. a fun and smooth experience.

I also bought Win 8.1 Pro, setup the machine for dual boot and then proceeded to install Win followed by Xubuntu. Gave me a good perspective on the state of the OSes.

Win install took much longer time, did not detect the AMD Radeon R9 card nor the Intel Eth interface on th MB. Or a lot of the peripherals. Using the supplied driver CD from Asus solved most of these, but not the GPU. To this day Win complains about some peripheral that it can't detect.

Xubuntu install was faster, smooth and did automatically detect all peripherals including Eth and GPU. And SW install using SW Center and Synaptic just works.

The Just Works used to be the perceived advantage of Win, and that Linux meant issues with drivers and fiddling with downloads from weird sites and manual builds.

It seems the world has flipped, mainly due to Linux progressing while Win really hasn't. Apart from the Metro/Modern interface that is there as well as the classic and you (read: I) end up being transferred between them.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#273

Post by baldfat »

evilduck wrote: post #156
baldfat wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh your really off base.. I am MUCH MORE biased against Apple. You know those Linux users who hate on Microsoft? I am the Linux user who HATES Apple since I was first lied to by Apple in 1983 (Color Mac coming in the next year, wasn't till March 1987) (Color Mac will destroy Amiga 1000 in 1985) I have never seen Apple as being honest or making products for me as a nerd. So I live mostly in Linux nowadays.

Alrighty.... I can't think of a better way to undermine your credibility, so I think we're done here.

A biased person isn't credible? What did I say that was factually wrong or personal opinion. I don't like Apple products (Locked down and no fun for a hacker and expensive)

I have no credibility since I don't like a company? What about the opposite people who like the company?

Credible people are always upfront with their biases. I never trust anyone that says they are neutral.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#274

Post by obituary_latte »

sls wrote: post #239
wwweston wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. OS X has many merits on this front, but since 10.3 I've found that the first few dot releases of OS X have the same caveats often enough (both in terms of bugs/hazards and in terms of gratuitous UI "progress") that it usually seems better to wait past .x.4/5. Now there's this, of course. Since the problem showed up in 2011, maybe I should go b…

> JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. My reply to that has always been that Windows is only $300 if you don't value your time. (Preserving archaic cost of Windows to match JWZ quote.) The implication that the one system is free and time-consuming and the other moderately in price but not time-consuming is entirely false. At the time, for many requirements, configuring and administeri…

here we see - in their natural habitat - the elusive yet ever present ARGUMENTUS SELFICUS EXEMPLITICUS. A rare treat, indeed.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#275

Post by firebones »

zatkin wrote: post #265
z-e-r-o wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They even released "Security Update 2015-004" at the same time, including many updates for 10.8 and 10.9, but not the admin framework. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204659

The first item on their list of patches is this vulnerability.

...and it says the admin framework fix only applies to 10.10 to 10.10.2, which was his point--it doesn't fix 10.8 to 10.9 like many of the other security update features do.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#276

Post by firebones »

w0utert wrote: post #130
diminoten wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't: from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204659 : > Admin Framework > Available for: OS X Yosemite v10.10 to v10.10.2 > Impact: A process may gain admin privileges without properly authenticating Description: An issue existed when checking XPC entitlements. This issue was addressed with improved entitlement checking. > CVE-ID > CVE-2015-1130 : Emil Kvarnhammar at TrueSec

I see, so a security update with the same version number does not contain the same patches on all OS X versions it rolls out on, that's... peculiar. I can't really believe Apple will actually leave this unpatched, as opposed to just saying it won't at this time. The impact of this exploit and the number of affected systems is way too big, they really can't let this sit in OS X versions that were brand new only one or…

I agree with this assessment. The initial fix of the exploit may be easy, but I would bet that the compatibility testing and fixes associated with things that will break because of the patch is what is holding it up.

It would be an interesting exercise to try to figure out what made it easier to patch in 10.10. Is it because it is an active code base, or because something was refactored between 10.8/10.9 and 10.10 that eliminated the need to take advantage of this undocumented capability--for instance, something in the System Preferences getting refactored?

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#277

Post by lqdc13 »

fr0styMatt2 wrote: post #247
hug wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your complaints are about Windows. They're all, almost universally, about OEM and third-party shovelware. You want to avoid OEMs trashing your computer? Don't pretend this is about a lack of choice, or about Microsoft being stuck in the past. It's about you being ignorant of your options, or ignorant of the ecosystem. Buy a Signature Series machine from Microsoft.[1] No crapware, no bundled "features" or "tri…

I wish I could upvote this comment a million times. I see the same kind of ignorance-of-their-options (note I specifically say ignorance-of-their-options; I'm not saying anyone is generally ignorant) reflected when developers complain that it's hard to get under the hood of Windows or when developers complain about the tooling on Windows. You'd at least hope that this segment of the user-base would have more intellec…

I agree with the poster above about usability, but I disagree about ease of development.

This is partially because linux is the dominant platform for Python developers, but developing/using Python libraries on Windows is really difficult. Many people simply overlook it.

The default command prompt is really really bad. There are alternatives, but none of them come close to the gnome shell. The Batch scripting language is terrible compared to Bash. Powershell is way too verbose and API-heavy. You can use Javascript, but then you are using Javascript... Then there are stability issues. I have left my home Linux computer on and online for months sometimes and never had any issues. Try the same thing on Windows... It will crash on the first week for sure.

The things Windows is great at is Office productivity software, gaming, design, and some other GPU-intensive tasks.

Desktop Linux is great at automation scripts, prototyping apps, temporary services for others (ssh and copy files), and virus-free internet browsing.

OSX is somewhere in the middle.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#278

Post by Animats »

jjarmoc wrote: post #178
f3llowtraveler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to tell for sure if something like this is intentional or not. Also, waiting to fix it until a researcher makes it public may have been intentional.

> There's no way to tell for sure if something like this is intentional or not. Right, so the simplest explanation is that it's an unintentional bug. The absence of evidence that it was unintentional isn't evidence that it was intentional. If there were some magic string or default password or something, that'd be an obvious backdoor, but to me this looks like a pretty typical privesc bug, albeit in an undocumented a…

There's no way to tell for sure if something like this is intentional or not.

Yes, there is. Sue Apple for willful negligence and subpoena the development logs.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#279

Post by mikeash »

glhaynes wrote: post #152
mike_hearn wrote: post #68

Objective-C's "null pointer dereferences doesn't crash" behaviour rears its ugly horrible head again. Programs crash for a reason! Crashing when faced with nonsense is a good thing! Let us not forget this.

I'm kind of surprised there's not a means (to my knowledge, at least) to crash/throw an exception upon sending a message to nil for people who want to better ensure their code doesn't have lurking issues like this. I suppose it'd have to be smart enough to filter out system frameworks to be useful, but I'd imagine that to be do-able.

There was, in the form of the -fno-nil-receivers compiler flag. It looks like clang doesn't support this flag. I'm guessing nobody used it. You'd have to be really careful when turning it on, since you're effectively using a language that's similar but not quite identical to Objective-C, and which will crash on lots of legal and sensible Objective-C code.

Re: Hidden backdoor API to root privileges in Apple OS X

#280

Post by caf »

jshevek wrote: post #269
wwweston wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. OS X has many merits on this front, but since 10.3 I've found that the first few dot releases of OS X have the same caveats often enough (both in terms of bugs/hazards and in terms of gratuitous UI "progress") that it usually seems better to wait past .x.4/5. Now there's this, of course. Since the problem showed up in 2011, maybe I should go b…

> JWZ used to say that Linux is only free if you don't value your time. Used to say? How long ago was that? Ubuntu and many other distros are incredibly easy and effortless to use. I know devs using apple products who spend more time mucking about with brew and other tools trying to accomplish things that are very easy to do on the most popular linux distros.

As far as I can recall, it was in the 90s.
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