21–30 of 49 posts
I compare coding with making music. You can teach everybody to make music, but most people are to shy to begin. Learning to make music requires lots of boring practice. Lot of people fail after a few month of guitar lessons as a kid. But then there are those manic musicians. A real musician must play everyday, regardless if he has audience, if he gets payed, if it sounds good to anybody but him. A real musician is ma…
I currently get a teaching degree. The education for that is split in two parts: The academic part in the university and the practical part at a school. I'm currently in the academic part, but some time ago a professor (not actually a professor) of the practical part gave some insights what the expect in the second part. He said that no matter how good we will be, in CS half of our (high school) students will not lea…
There is a considerable literature on 'the CS1 problem' in education. It is a long-term, robust observation that the marks in first-year computing courses in university are strongly bimodal in a way that is not seen in other, comparably difficult subjects. Here is a discussion of a paper (with link to the paper itself) that looks at these issues: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=1338 And some follow-on, where I build a…
Which, I believe, also hold true with learning to program.
I posted this because I strongly agree with Crista on the notion that some people can inherently program, and some cannot. I think that's as ridiculous as she does. However, I see the sentiment repeated here, often. I posted this to present the arguments of a CS professor on the topic, one who has even more experiencing in it than I do.
It's great to contend that everyone can be taught to program, but decades of research have yet to answer the question of "How?" Or even "Why?" Many people have very strongly felt opinions, but there is a surprising paucity of data.
The idea that some people get it, some don't is not at all ridiculous: it is a perfectly plausible hypothesis given the robust bimodal mark distribution seen in first year computing, which differs from what we see in math or the sciences. The problem is no one has been able to find anything that correlates well enough with this to be predictive, and if "not getting it" and "getting it" were features of humans we might expect to be able to measure them in ways other than teaching first year computing.
On the other hand, no one has ever been able to get rid of that bimodal shape (so far as I know), so there is an equal and opposite knock against that hypothesis.
I lean toward the "inherent" hypothesis and have some ideas as to what might underlie it, but would be easily convinced otherwise if anyone could actually generate an intro computer curriculum that resulted in a mark distribution that looked more like what we see in first year math or physics.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
If by "post" you are referring to the pile of shit that is linked, then yes. My negativity here is NOTHING compared to the negativity and resentment by the professor in the article, who cloaks it in positive language. I'm only saying that people should be more aware of what drives others, and look past the surface. On the other hand, he is advocating for a Cult of Computer Science with specially designed courses for…
I can't tell if you're just trolling or if this is actually your sincere interpretation. Did we read the same article, at all? The takeaway from the one I read is, "if all you do is present information in a way that's accessible to extremely bright self-directed students and let the rest fail, you're not a real teacher. Our entire job is to find ways to make programming accessible and compelling to people that it doe…
The observation in the article you paraphrased is more the realization of a student or bright child, not a fucking professor. It's sad that we let things degenerate this far in regard to CS education. Only in CS is this "let the rest fail" the conventional wisdom (conventional idiocy that is).
And yes, racial segregation of classes is something that enriches the upper class in general, and the prof is advocating this and that alone makes me hold her in contempt.
For me, this article was thought-provoking throughout, but there was a very deeply-buried lede as well: in the linked interview with Maria Klawe[1], all the way at the bottom, where she mentions separating the 101-level CS class by previous programming experience. I think that an exceedingly large portion of the barriers to entry faced by students trying to enter the field is due to the disparity in experience , whic…
No, of course it's good to have people of vastly differing experience and aptitude learning from each other! You just need to separate the assholes and subhumans from the inexperienced newbies and human being who like the subject for what it is (and not as a way to look down on others).
Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a considerable literature on 'the CS1 problem' in education. It is a long-term, robust observation that the marks in first-year computing courses in university are strongly bimodal in a way that is not seen in other, comparably difficult subjects. Here is a discussion of a paper (with link to the paper itself) that looks at these issues: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=1338 And some follow-on, where I build a…
I think your entire thesis can be boiled down to "if there is a will, there is a way." Which, I believe, also hold true with learning to program.
Like anyone who has pursued a diversity of interests fairly seriously over decades, I've found that some things are really easy for me, others not. I'm an excellent poet, if I do say so myself, and although I've worked hard at it, it comes easily to me. But after forty years of steady practice I'm pretty sure I will never be much of a prose stylist, no matter how hard I work at it. I can tell a decent story, but when I look at people like Iain Banks or David Mitchell I recognize that they "get it" in a way I probably never will, no matter how much effort I put in.
So the belief that force of will can overcome all obstacles is not one that I subscribe to. It can help, but some obstacles are simply too big. It is an open question if this is often the case with regard to learning to code, and while I think it is, the lack of any independent measure of "getting it" makes my position implausible. As such, all that would take to convince me otherwise would be a way of teaching CS1 that didn't routinely result in the traditional bimodal mark distribution.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a considerable literature on 'the CS1 problem' in education. It is a long-term, robust observation that the marks in first-year computing courses in university are strongly bimodal in a way that is not seen in other, comparably difficult subjects. Here is a discussion of a paper (with link to the paper itself) that looks at these issues: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=1338 And some follow-on, where I build a…
I think your entire thesis can be boiled down to "if there is a will, there is a way." Which, I believe, also hold true with learning to program.
For me, this article was thought-provoking throughout, but there was a very deeply-buried lede as well: in the linked interview with Maria Klawe[1], all the way at the bottom, where she mentions separating the 101-level CS class by previous programming experience. I think that an exceedingly large portion of the barriers to entry faced by students trying to enter the field is due to the disparity in experience , whic…
No, of course it's good to have people of vastly differing experience and aptitude learning from each other! You just need to separate the assholes and subhumans from the inexperienced newbies and human being who like the subject for what it is (and not as a way to look down on others).
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think your entire thesis can be boiled down to "if there is a will, there is a way." Which, I believe, also hold true with learning to program.
Not at all. It's "Some (maybe many) people will require an implausibly large amount of will for learning to code to be a worthwhile use of their time." Like anyone who has pursued a diversity of interests fairly seriously over decades, I've found that some things are really easy for me, others not. I'm an excellent poet, if I do say so myself, and although I've worked hard at it, it comes easily to me. But after fort…
I totally agree with this, and, if fact, it I were totally honest I would say that I took up programming at 15yo because it came easily to me and seemed like a great way to make a living, although performing music was my true love.
I am not saying " force of will can overcome all obstacles", but I am saying if someone wants to overcome their obstacles, there should be no additional ones placed in their way just because they are on the wrong side of the "bimodal mark distribution" curve.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't tell if you're just trolling or if this is actually your sincere interpretation. Did we read the same article, at all? The takeaway from the one I read is, "if all you do is present information in a way that's accessible to extremely bright self-directed students and let the rest fail, you're not a real teacher. Our entire job is to find ways to make programming accessible and compelling to people that it doe…
I just think it's a tragedy that the prof only goes this far. The observation in the article you paraphrased is more the realization of a student or bright child, not a fucking professor . It's sad that we let things degenerate this far in regard to CS education. Only in CS is this "let the rest fail" the conventional wisdom (conventional idiocy that is). And yes, racial segregation of classes is something that enric…
2) The post does not advocate racial segregation, but desegregation. And as noted in the comments, interventions targeted at improving learning for women/racial minorities/veterans/distance students/etc tend to improve learning for everyone.